The School Can't Experience

#5 - Home Education: Busting Myths and Misunderstandings with Pavlina McMaster

• School Can't Australia • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by Pavlina McMaster, Coordinator at the Home Education Network to shed light on some common myths about Home Education, including: 

  • Myth #1:Home Education is a last resort
  • Myth #2: I have to work so don’t have time to Home Educate
  • Myth #3: I’m not smart/educated enough to teach my kids
  • Myth #4: Home Education restricts our kids future opportunities
  • Myth #5: Home Education kids miss out on social opportunities.

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Also search for Home Education Facebook groups in your city or local area. There are many!

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Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia Community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. One topic that comes up for many of us in the School Can't community is Home Education. And today I'm delighted to be speaking with Pavlina McMaster who joins us from the Home Education Network or HEN. If you're fortunate enough to be part of the School Can't Australia Facebook group, you're probably already familiar with Pavlina because she is in there sharing many resources and lots of her knowledge, experience, and wisdom on Home Education on a very regular basis. And she has a big job on her hands because Home Education is often very misunderstood by almost everybody from parents and our children, teachers, and many of the other professionals that we intersect with along our School Can't journey. So today, Pavlina is joining us to help shed light on some of the most common myths about Home Education. Let's get started, shall we? Pavlina, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and your journey into what you're doing today?

Pavlina:

Sure, so I'm a volunteer for the Home Education Network. We came into Home Education twelve years ago when my first child started prep and it didn't work for him at all. So, he was a School Can't kid and we pulled him out. We came to Home Ed 12 years ago, quite traumatized from the school system and carrying a lot of baggage. We've shed that baggage and my eldest is now almost 18. And my younger one was a Kinder Can't kid. And we pulled her out because we were Home Educating her brother by then anyway. So yeah, we just started Home Educating her from the start. She never went to school.

Leisa Reichelt:

Tell me about the Home Education Network. Who is it? What does it do?

Pavlina:

So we're a not-for-profit organisation. We're Australia-wide. We're run entirely by volunteers, so we don't have any paid staff. And all of us have lived experience of Home Educating from babies all the way through to teens and beyond. And most of us have lived experience of disability, neurodivergence. So our main functions are supporting home educating families, advocating for parents and children, educating new Home Educators and prospective Home Educators, professionals, general public, education departments. We build community and we build connections in the Home Ed community. We run camps and excursions and assist pretty much anyone interested in Home Education.

Leisa Reichelt:

Amazing. Excellent. Well, looking forward to talking a lot about it today. I am noticing that you are using the term Home Education rather than homeschooling.

Pavlina:

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt:

Do you wanna talk about why that terminology matters?

Pavlina:

Sure. So the idea of schooling is more about, you know, that, uh, opening up someone's head and putting information in. And it's also, it also has connotations about it happening in four walls. And it's not about schooling, it's about education, it's about learning and you know, joy and lifelong learning and those sorts of things. And so it's about becoming educated, not becoming schooled. So there's a bit of a difference.

Leisa Reichelt:

Not about taking the recipe, the formula of what happens at school and transporting it into the home environment.

Pavlina:

Exactly.

Leisa Reichelt:

We talked earlier about the level of misunderstanding that people have about Home Education, what they think it is, what they think needs to happen in order to do it, And we thought that maybe coming in and busting some Home Education myths would be a good place to start today. So let's start with our very first myth that we picked out, which is, this idea that Home Education is the last resort when everything else fails,

Pavlina:

Yeah. You've tried everything else. If nothing else works, then you Home Educate.

Leisa Reichelt:

Why is that untrue?

Pavlina:

Oh, look, I wish I'd never sent my kids to school. While the school system serves a purpose and it's an educational option that people can take Home Education, I feel from the start would've given my kid that continuation of the joy of learning that was very much interrupted by the introduction of the school system. We don't consider Home Education as an option early enough for a lot of kids who are struggling. And there is nothing wrong with sending a kid off to school and at the first sign of trouble turning around and saying, you know what? This isn't working. Because what we see so much of the time is it's not working and it's not working for a long period of time. And the longer it's not working, the more, um, decompression time those kids need. The more trauma they're carrying, the more, their self-concept has been harmed a lot of the time. And you've gotta unravel that. You then gotta undo all of those things and give that kid time to heal. Before they can reengage in learning. And a lot of the time we also see kids coming out and saying, I hate reading, or I hate learning, or, you know, there's nothing there for me. Because, they've been in a system that hasn't been set up for them. And doesn't match the way that they learn best. And they haven't had the opportunity to spread their wings and try out the things that they're really good at. A lot of the time they are School Can't because the school system has been asking things of them that they're not able to give and that are very focused on their challenges and on things that they find really hard. If they equate school with learning and education, then there's a lot of rejection of that and a lot of rejection of the idea of learning and anything that you know might be"educational". And so if we leave it and leave it and leave it and leave it and leave it and try, you know, and we tried this school and we tried that school and we tried this teacher and that teacher you can have the most supportive, well-meaning adults in that child's life, in that system. And you can have all the supports in place, but it might still not work. Home Education is an amazing option for so many kids and it can offer them so much. And so taking that option earlier in the long run is easier on parents. It's easier on kids. We did a big survey back in 2022 with the Senate inquiry and we found that the longer people left it, the more trauma everybody had in the whole family. There was so much stress in those families. 98% of people said that there was major stress and strife in their household, and that's no way for anybody to live. You know, that child, their siblings, the parents, it's not conducive to a, chilled out life where you're enjoying what you are doing and you're loving learning. Pavlina,

Leisa Reichelt:

My observation is that very few professionals will recommend to a parent that they should consider home education would you agree with that observation and why you think that is?

Pavlina:

Absolutely a hundred percent. Through our survey, we found that a very large proportion of people, it was something like 60 or 70% did not have supportive professionals in their life. And everyone was saying to them, you know, professionals, but then also family and friends were saying, no, don't do it. Don't do it. You know, it's going to ruin their life. They're not gonna have opportunities. And I think a lot of that negativity is, is grounded in myths and it's grounded in misunderstanding. And it's grounded in believing that the only way to get an education is inside those four walls and that you can't do it outside. And I always say to people, dude, have you learned anything since you've left school?

Leisa Reichelt:

Mm Amazing. If you have got a, a child who's not currently flourishing in their education environment what are the kinds of things that might be indicators that they would be well suited to Home Education?

Pavlina:

I want to say that any child is suited to Home Education because Home Education at its core is child centered and you are focused on the needs of that child. So you are parenting and educating the child in front of you. You are thinking about what they need in terms of emotionally, physically, those sorts of things, but you're also thinking about how does that child learn best? Do they learn best by hands-on doing things? Do they learn best by reading or listening to things? What are they naturally drawn to? Do they like watching YouTube videos or do they like to go to the library and borrow a book? And that's your answer about how that kid likes to consume information. And then you think about what does that child enjoy? What do they love? What lights their fire? What gets their motor revving, what are they really excited about? If they were to get up in the morning and do anything they could and they were able to follow that, what would they do? And so because it's so child centered, it's suited to any child. And having said that, some parents find it difficult to get their head around how it could be suited to them.

Leisa Reichelt:

That was exactly my next two myths are both kind of parent-related myths.

Pavlina:

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt:

So our first one was... I have to work. I'm busy. I don't have time to do Home Education. That's something that, I mean, a lot of parents who have got School Can't kids are already in a really sticky situation a lot of the time in terms of of work. What do we do in that situation?

Pavlina:

The first thing I would say is if you have a School Can't kid, your work situation is already tricky, right? And it's unpredictable. I would suggest to you that Home Education brings in some predictability because you can actually plan. You can make a plan about how this is gonna work and what it's gonna look like for every family is very different. You know, does Johnny go to Grandma's on Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays and do gardening and cooking with her and, you know, building in the shed with her, you know, building bird houses, possum boxes, nesting boxes or something. Does it look like, Mum works out of home Monday through to Wednesday, and Dad works out of home Thursday to Saturday. Does it look like, you share it with a, with a family that you know who's also Home Educating. You know, you take their kids one day a week, they take your kids one day a week, Does it look like working nights? People have moved from a more affluent suburb to a less affluent suburb and downsized. We grow a lot of our own food. You learn how to reduce your spending. You drive a hatchback instead of a fancy car. There's lots of ways of making it work. It's about figuring out how it can work for you, but again, it becomes more predictable. If you can work from home, great. You know, if you can think of something to do from home, that's fantastic too. So there's ways around,

Leisa Reichelt:

So it might be fair to say that if you have got a big demanding full-time job that requires you to be in the office and traveling all the time, not work unless you've got

Pavlina:

Oh,

Leisa Reichelt:

village around you to

Pavlina:

you need a village? Yeah, you do. Unless you can take your kid with you when you are traveling.

Leisa Reichelt:

I kind of say from personal experience, I had one of those

Pavlina:

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt:

School Can't it like impossible to manage really.

Pavlina:

But if you did and you were traveling, then that would be a predictable thing, right? You could keep that job and make it work. I know a dad, for example, he takes his kid to work who's six and the six year old has a job. He has a little name tag and he does jobs. He stuffs envelopes, Carries mail around, he his own little computer and types away at his own things while he is at work with Dad. And he's part of that environment. They make it work because he's there, he's learning at the same time. You know, he's learning his own things on his own computer, or he's writing his own stories, or he's doing whatever. And then he's also part of that environment and he's happy in that environment because he feels safe and he knows the people and his Dad's right there. So it doesn't have to look like what we already know. work and life to look like.

Leisa Reichelt:

Okay. So we just need a lot more flexibility in terms of how we think fitting Home Education into our work and also how we fit

Pavlina:

that's right.

Leisa Reichelt:

around our understanding of education,

Pavlina:

Yes, exactly. Because Home Education is not sitting down doing book work

Leisa Reichelt:

Okay, Okay, well that kind of is a good transition to our next myth,

Pavlina:

Yes. Oh, excellent.

Leisa Reichelt:

you know, a lot of parents are like, I would be one of them. I look at the maths that my son is doing and I'm like, there's no way I could teach him how to do that maths.

Pavlina:

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt:

so therefore, how could I possibly Home Educate him when I can't help him with the work that he is doing now, let alone what he is going to be doing in a year or two years or more.

Pavlina:

Yeah, so a parent's role is not a teacher. You're not the sage on the stage who knows all the things and can teach all the things. Sometimes we are learning alongside our kids and we help each other with things, you know? I'm like, oh yeah. I reckon you do that. And then they can look at it and go, Hmm, I don't think you're right about that. And then you reassess. Right? So you are also you're modeling. How do you learn something that you don't know? You know, you find resource together. You are a facilitator. You can find a class, you can help them find a mentor. You can help them find a website or a YouTuber or books however it is that they want to learn. But the other point too, is that they don't have to do all the things. They don't have to do calculus. If they want to be a graphic artist, there is no point in worrying about the things that they can't do right now or that they are really resistant to. You know, if that kid wants to become a pilot down the track, they can do the P to 12 curriculum. They can cover that in six weeks or six months when they're engaged, when they're passionate. And there's plenty of examples where Home Ed kids have done that. It's about learning, investigation skills and learning critical thinking skills and learning how to research and, you know, how do you gather new skills, teaching our kids to do that and empowering our children to do that because those are the skills that they're gonna need moving forward through the 21st century.

Leisa Reichelt:

What about the administrative side of this.

Pavlina:

Mm-hmm

Leisa Reichelt:

think that's the other thing that can be pretty overwhelming as a parent looking at this going, okay, well if it's a school thing, all I know is I just have to get my kid to go to school for X amount of time. If I was going to take on homeschooling, I understand there's a whole lot of stuff that has to be done to make that change and to sort of demonstrate that the learning is happening.

Pavlina:

Okay.

Leisa Reichelt:

What's, how do we get our heads

Pavlina:

around that? Most states you don't actually have to prove that the kids are learning. Most states, you have to demonstrate that you are providing learning opportunities. There are a few states where, you do have to show progress. We're actually putting more detailed guides on our website as we speak. It really depends on your state. There's a lot of assistance out there. So we've got some good summaries on our website, but also I would strongly encourage people to join their state-based Facebook group. So for example, in Victoria we've got, Victorian Homeschoolers and Unschoolers Group. In Queensland we recommend HEQ, so Home Education Queensland. In New South Wales, Home Education New South Wales, in WA there's HEWA, the, you know, Home Education, Western Australia, every single state has their own group where parents have set it up, they run it, and they are the single best source of information for registering and for help with those sorts of things. Ask your questions in those because they, they're a gold mine. Fantastic.

Leisa Reichelt:

We will put links in our notes to go with this episode to the various places that you can go to get in touch with all of those communities. That's, that's fantastic. You've talked about like how, this difference between, you don't have to learn calculus, you just have to like learn about learning and you know, go and stuff envelopes at Dad's office and watch YouTube videos and all of those kinds of things. That kind of leads me a little bit, sort of to the next myth, right? Which is, I think people have an idea that kids who are Home Educated are very restricted in terms of what their future could look like, right? They're gonna be less successful, they're less likely to get into uni or get into like fancy jobs and all of that kind of thing. How would you respond to that myth?

Pavlina:

Okay, so Home Ed kids can do whatever they want at the end of the day, like they are able to get into any uni course that they want to. Not that uni is, the be all and end all. But, Home Ed actually gives kids a great opportunity to explore what they love and to explore what they're good at. If something doesn't come naturally to me and I'm not particularly interested in it, there's no point in me doing a uni course on it, because that's not gonna give my career longevity anyway. I'm not gonna be passionate about it. So, Home Ed kids have a lot of space and time to figure out what they excel at and what they love. A lot of Home Ed kids will actually develop businesses while they're being Home Educated. It could be like a flower farm, it could be You know, whatever. It could be lawn mowing business. It could be any number of things that they set up that also give them budgeting skills. It gives them business planning and management skills, gives them a whole lot of skills that they might not get the opportunity to develop otherwise. They can do early entry to uni. They can do TAFE courses depending on what state from quite early, um. They can get into uni on early entries. So the way you get into uni as a Home Educated kid, there's lots of different ways and it's gonna depend on your course. So you'd go to the uni, you'd say, I'm interested in doing this course. Explain to me how, how mature age student would get into this course. Because the majority of people who go to university every year actually do not have an ATAR. They actually go as mature age students or alternate pathways. So that might be, go and do a cert course, you know, diploma at TAFE. It might be doing some open university subjects, and then submitting your scores for those. It might be an entrance exam or a bridging course, it might be a portfolio, especially if you're talking about fine arts. So it really depends on what they wanna do.

Leisa Reichelt:

Presumably in the course of doing Home Education, you're not having to do like structured academic essays, right? And then you'll land in university and have to do all of that kind of thing there. I imagine that there's a, there's an argument that says if you are Home Educated and you will ultimately land in university that and has a very particular way that they want things done. Does that cause issues?

Pavlina:

No, because those are skills that you can learn while you are there for a start. There are a lot of kids who come outta school without those skills. Effectively, there are learning centers at universities and TAFES which support kids to develop those skills, but also there's this myth that you need to be, writing all these essays in order to be able to write a good essay. No, you just need to have read plenty of essays or reports or whatever it is, and those skills are so transferable. Our brains are pretty amazing. You know, they notice patterns in how things work, and we internalize a lot of those structures, and then it's a lot easier for us to perform those skills. And apart from anything else, a lot of Home Ed kids do those things anyway. A lot of Home Ed kids love to write their own stories or their own essays. One of my kids, for example, wanted to write a scientific report, and so he just did it. He just wanted to do it for fun because it was play for him. They're doing all these things already, and if they haven't, then that's fine because those skills, when their brains are more mature and more developed and more ready and more able to do it, and they're also interested in it and it becomes relevant to them, they can learn those skills very fast when they have this foundation. And the foundation is language, which they get a lot of because there's a lot of talking with parents, especially in Home Education.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah, your point about the fact that there's no guarantee coming out of school that you're gonna do well at university is, is one well taken. I did really well, in high school and then went to do my undergraduate degree and just did terribly so badly when I first landed there and kind of basically had to relearn how to write all over again.

Pavlina:

And also, let's not forget that what the expectations are, are very individual to a specific lecturer. Forget a course. I mean, I've done a lot of uni and every single person wants something done differently, so it's about being flexible and adaptable and being able to understand the requirements rather than being able to do it in a specific set way.

Leisa Reichelt:

Let's talk about the other thing that people consider when they think about the future for Home Educated children. I think there's a whole subject area around socialization, this kind of notion that homeschooled kids sit at home by themselves.

Pavlina:

Mm.

Leisa Reichelt:

Weaving,

Pavlina:

In.

Leisa Reichelt:

hopefully not locked into cupboard, but you know, not necessarily developing those kind of social skills that you would get in the school environment, and that this might mean that they don't end up having friendships as they progress through life, that they might not be well prepared for the challenging social dynamic of the workplace. What can you tell us about that?

Pavlina:

A lot of school kids come out of school without good friendships but I'm also going to put it to you that Home Ed kids actually end up with better relationships, especially for neurodivergent kids. They don't have to put up with bullying. They are around people who are far more accepting of difference. Home Education is actually very social. It happens in each other's houses, on excursions, on camps, in classes, depending on how your kid wants to engage. The extent to which your kid wants to engage. In co-ops, run by parents where they get together once a week and everybody runs a different activity. It happens in homeschool groups and Home Ed groups, it happens in the community and those kids are far more confident generally talking to adults. In advocating for themselves and in being able to make friends with a very broad range of people. Because you know, you'll go to this camp and you'll meet these people and you'll make friends with them and you spend a lot of hours with them. So you get to start cementing those relationships and then you go to another camp or another class and you meet other people and you know, they're from all different walks of life. And with all different communication styles, and you are practicing all those skills, you know, you're not stuck in the one school environment with the same group of people all the time. You are communicating with people who are older than you and younger than you. I'm 49. I have some friends who are 49, but most of them are very different ages. So it's a far more real life situation to be Home Educated and be in the community than it is to be in a school environment where you've got limited contact with other people. A lot of School Can't kids come out of school unable to interact and unable to leave the house and hiding under their doona because the world is just so overwhelming and so traumatic and so scary. And for those kids. social interaction might look like after a few months, when they're able to communicate. For a start, it'll be their safe people. It'll be Mum or and or Dad. It'll be siblings potentially. It might be a couple of cousins or friends or whatever. But a lot of it will be online to start with. And don't discount online friends'cause they're super important as well, and just as valuable as in-person friends. Social doesn't have to look the same for everybody. And some kids are seriously social. One of my kids is super social and the other one is like, I have these friends and deep excellent relationships with them and I'm happy with that. I don't need to go and talk to, 10,000 people like my sibling does. I'm quite happy with my group. One loves parties. The other one No thanks, and that's fine. That's part of normal human variation. You know, the socialisation myth is a myth.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah. It sounds as though there's a whole lot of activity and connection that's

Pavlina:

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt:

in Home Education that the majority of folk who haven't dipped their toe in there might not even know is going on.

Pavlina:

Yeah. And it's a very big, vibrant community and lots of variety in there. And you know, if you don't find your tribe, that's fine. Just keep looking. They're out there.

Leisa Reichelt:

Amazing. We've talked about some of the myths that predominantly sort of parents maybe other other professionals might have about Home Education. I suspect a lot of kids also have bought into some myths as well. I know that, certainly for my son when I go, Hey, what about we do Home Education? He's like, no, no. As though it's a terrible thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think he's like, I'm not gonna be stuck with my Mum trying to teach me maths.

Pavlina:

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt:

How do we help to debunk some of these myths for these kids who could probably benefit from this, but are initially really resistant?

Pavlina:

Well resistant because you know, I mean, for a start it's an unknown.

Leisa Reichelt:

Mm.

Pavlina:

There aren't movies and TV series with all these Home Educated kids running around. You know, there's so many myths around Home Education that are also perpetuated in the media. On TV, you know, you'll have the weirdo who's Home Educated in a TV series, and there's a lot of perpetuation of those myths. Part of what doesn't help too, is the messages that kids get intentionally and unintentionally from media and the, and the school system especially about, if you don't finish school, you'll be a failure. You know, the words and the terminology we use are really powerful. You know, high school dropout, that's a big one, and it's so commonly used. And there's stigma associated with leaving school because everybody wants us to finish school because, you know, a society status quo is that that's the only way to get an education. And there's so many other ways to get an education and I think perhaps normalizing that and talking about, you know, what are our deep seated fears? What are our deep seated concerns? And, you know, if a parent can't answer those, that's fine. Just find someone who can, you know, if your kid says to you, I'm really worried, I wanna do architecture how can I possibly get into uni and do architecture if I'm Home Educated. I can't do that. If you don't know the answer to that question, then you, you go onto the, there's a, there's a great, Home Ed group on Facebook, um, careers and further education or something. You ask in there.'Anybody's kid done architecture?' And people say to you, yeah, great. Go get them onto doing some CAD or learning blender or whatever and do this and this all of a sudden that kid who's reluctant to leave school perhaps might be less reluctant because they can also now see that, hey, you know what, I can do work experience and I could do one day of work experience every week for the whole year with an architect. Which is an opportunity they don't get at school, you know? So it's also about, you know, dude, there's opportunities, there are actually big opportunities when you are Home Educated that you don't get when you're at school. It's not about less opportunity, it's about different opportunity. And a lot of the time it's about more opportunity.

Leisa Reichelt:

Amazing. Fantastic. That's very inspiring. Um. Pavlina, if Uh, somebody who is listening thinking about whether Home Education might be the right pathway for them and their family. where to get started?

Pavlina:

Where to get started. It really depends on the individual and how they like to learn. You know, if they like to learn from other people, I would encourage them to find their local Home Ed group and go along and ask questions. Maybe find a few different ones. Join some Facebook groups, ask questions in there. We have people all the time joining our Facebook group who are thinking about Home Ed and just wanna look around, see what the community's like, find out about local groups and opportunities. Our website has a whole lot of information on it. So we've got videos on there. We've got a list of our upcoming webinars. That's a great way to learn about it, especially if you have kids who are experiencing School Can't. They can also email us, have a chat by email. We can point them to resources.

Leisa Reichelt:

Okay, so first up the HEN website and we will make sure there's a link for that in the notes with this episode as well. Alright Pavlina, anything that you think people desperately need to know about Home Education that we haven't covered?

Pavlina:

Look, it's great. You know, it's a way of life and so many people, within a year of that kid, you know, once that kid's decompressed and is no longer so stressed, they, they say, I have my child back. I don't remember them being so happy. I don't remember them, you know, laughing like this for the last two, three years. They realized that was missing from their child's life. It's life changing and life saving too for some kids. So give it a try. And you know what, if it doesn't suit you, you can always go back, you know?

Leisa Reichelt:

Absolutely. Yeah. It's not a one way door is it? Amazing. All right, well thank you so, so much for sharing your time and all of your knowledge with us today. We really appreciate it and I'm sure we'll talk with you again soon.

Pavlina:

Lovely. Thank you. Thanks so much for having us..

Leisa Reichelt:

Okay, well I hope you found that a bit insightful and inspiring and you discovered something new about Home Education today. I want to recognise that many of us in the School Can't community have tried Home Education and it's not worked out, for many reasons. This does not mean that you or your young people are failures. We are going to be sharing all kinds of experiences with Home Education in the future on this podcast, and we would welcome you to share your experience as well. You'll find the links to HEN, the Home Education Network, as well as many of the Facebook groups that Pavlina mentioned in the notes that go along with this episode. We've also added a link to the School Can't Australia community, and there's a place for you to share your feedback on this podcast or maybe even volunteer to share your own School Can't experience on a future podcast episode. We would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you're feeling distressed, remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the show notes. And finally, please consider donating to School Can't Australia. Your tax deductible donations assist us to raise community awareness, to partner with researchers, and to produce resources like webinars and this very podcast to assist people who are supporting children and young people experiencing School Can't. Thanks again for listening and we'll talk again soon. Take care.