#9 - Lived Experience - Trusting our guts and tuning out the noise with Jennie Plummer

In this Lived Experience episode we meet Jennie Plummer who shares her experience of supporting youngest daughter, Bethany, through her School Can’t Experience. Including her ADHD and Autism diagnosis, burnout, and equine supported recovery. Along the way Jennie learned to listen, trust her gut and tune out the loud opinions of others around her.

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I am Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. In today's episode, we are going to hear another School Can't Lived Experience. This week our guest is Jennie Plummer. Jennie is speaking to us from the beautiful mid north coast of New South Wales, and she is sharing the story of supporting her youngest child, Bethany. Bethany was actually the ninth child that Jennie raised but there was still a lot to learn for Jennie and I am so grateful that she has agreed to share her story of supporting Bethany with us today. So Jennie, I would love for you to get us started by just telling us a little bit about yourself and your family and just any context you think might be helpful.

Jennie Plummer: 1:05

I'm 56 and I'm the mother to four biological children and five stepchildren. All my children except my youngest are young adults. And my youngest is my School Can't child. I finished year 12, went to university, did multiple degrees, and finally settled in nursing as a registered nurse. But now I'm on a disability support pension.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:35

What was your story of discovery with Neurodivergence in your family?

Jennie Plummer: 1:39

Well, my eldest son, it wasn't till he went into kindergarten, big school and he was struggling to read and write. The school kept telling me, but couldn't tell me where I could go to get help. I saw three pediatricians and he was finally diagnosed with combined ADHD, later dyslexia, and very recently as an adult with dysgraphia.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:08

Wow. So that's been quite a journey for him then, hasn't it?

Jennie Plummer: 2:10

And then my second child was picked up in daycare. He was eventually diagnosed with Autism, but back then they classed it as Asperger's. Then my next child was ADHD. Finally my School Can't child, Bethany, uh, Inattentive ADHD, Autism level one and probable PDA profile. She was not picked up until year nine with ADHD and year 10 ASD and the PDA I sort of picked up at the same time as when she was diagnosed with Autism I suspect that she does have maybe dysgraphia too,'cos she has trouble writing down what's in her head. She can't express herself and gets very frustrated and just gives up.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:07

Mm. Mm-hmm. I did get

Jennie Plummer: 3:08

her assessed and they thought that she did have it, but then when they asked her to write on a topic of interest, could write it perfectly. So they couldn't diagnose her as that. Exactly. But now what she's doing now, she's struggling with the same thing.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:25

Yeah. So it'd be interesting just to kinda unpack for a minute, right. All the boys were diagnosed really early

Jennie Plummer: 3:32

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 3:32

and then Bethany really late, like you'd been through the diagnosis experience.

Jennie Plummer: 3:37

I missed it myself,

Leisa Reichelt: 3:39

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not, I mean, not that it's your fault because like there's professional people for this, right? But talk a little bit about that.

Jennie Plummer: 3:46

She's also quite bright and I think that sort of disguised the struggle. She actually mentioned herself in year eight I think it was, that she thought she had ADHD. And I looked back at her siblings and thought, no, you don't have ADHD.'cause they were the typical boy presentation, you know hyperactive, And where she was quiet and just, she definitely had the female presentation, but I wasn't aware of that. And I think,'cause she did well in primary school, but I can look back now and I can see that I scaffolded and so did the school. And so when she transitioned into high school, the scaffolding dropped away and then the problems arose.

Leisa Reichelt: 4:35

Let's go back and talk about Bethany's school journey.

Jennie Plummer: 4:38

Primary school she seemed to sail through. She was a high achiever academically and in sport. She did a lot of representative sport for the school. She joined in all activities. She was on the debating team, the school student representative council. She did public speaking, which I couldn't imagine her doing that now. She did so well in the NAPLAN that she was given extension work privately, and she got a major trophy every single year in primary school at presentation day at the end of the year, like academic awards.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:16

She didn't just cope, she smashed it.

Jennie Plummer: 5:18

Yeah, she did. So this came as an awful shock when we went to high school. But looking back, she did have social issues starting in year five. She kept swapping friends groups and they'd have fights. She couldn't understand what she was doing wrong. She said, I'm trying to be a good friend, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong. And she seemed to have a lot of friends, but no true, close, meaningful friends. She flitted around from group to group and in the end she made friends with children that didn't even attend that school, just children she met on the bus from other schools. Even then she swapped those friends around. So I thought she had heaps of friends, but she didn't really have any.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:03

So those were early signs when you look back. So then we moved forward into high school.

Jennie Plummer: 6:08

Mm-hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:09

And what happened with high school?

Jennie Plummer: 6:10

Year seven was okay. I think year eight the signs really began. She was in the top stream of the school and she kept asking to be dropped down, that she just wants to be in an average class. She can't cope with the work. And I spoke to the school and they said, oh, she's quiet and she's achieving well, we don't really want her to go down. So that was delayed. She eventually did go down. She relaxed more. She was so happy. No pressure. But after one of the exams the deputy principal said she needs to go back up. She did, and she didn't cope. She was having trouble. They had to start doing PEEL paragraphs and essays and extended answers. She just couldn't grasp that concept at all. She was given private tutoring at the school, by the school, but that stressed her even more. She hated it and said, I don't want to do it anymore. And yeah, that was really the start. She kept wanting to go back down to a lower class. She started having vague ailments, stomach aches, headaches, all sorts of things to stay home. And then eventually said, I just don't want to go to school. And that's it. No excuses of physical ailments. She just didn't want to attend.

Leisa Reichelt: 7:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie Plummer: 7:34

She asked to change schools and we tried that several times and it didn't work. And she kept going back to the original mainstream high school.

Leisa Reichelt: 7:46

Jennie, do you have a sense of what was going on then?

Jennie Plummer: 7:49

I thought it was to do with friendships.'cause the first thing that happened in year nine, was she had three friends and they moved out of the area because of a local housing crisis. And that's where I thought it stemmed from. But it wasn't until she went into complete burnout that we started exploring things. That was just a part of it, but wasn't everything. And I didn't listen to the fact that she was struggling academically.'cause I'm thinking, you, you are so bright. You know, you got all these awards. I should have listened, but I didn't.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:27

We all say that in retrospect, don't we? Had her marks slipped, was she obviously academically struggling? Or.

Jennie Plummer: 8:33

She was still doing well in the subjects she liked, which is another thing I can recognize now, but English, she could understand in her head, like say she had to analyze a poem. She could do that in her head and tell you verbally, but she couldn't put that down in writing or express it in an extended, expanded way. And I was getting frustrated thinking, why can't you do this? But now I know she really was struggling and she actually came up to me and said, I think I've got ADHD like my brothers and'cause I didn't know the female presentation was going, no, you don't. Like, I, I wrongly thought that she was becoming lazy, I think, and she just didn't want to be in the high class and do the work involved. But now I know it was the opposite to that. She was trying. Trying and struggling.

Leisa Reichelt: 9:35

I think what you said then is such a common thing for so many of us, isn't it? You kind of get caught in this back and forth. It's like, is there something wrong or are they just being lazy?

Jennie Plummer: 9:44

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 9:44

my job to support them? Or actually should I be pushing them? Like, which they're both opposite things, but which one's, right. Who knows?

Jennie Plummer: 9:52

yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 9:52

It's a quandary.

Jennie Plummer: 9:53

yeah, Yeah. So,

Leisa Reichelt: 9:56

So what happened next?

Jennie Plummer: 9:58

well, we tried out of area enrollment into a school. And then she went to other schools within the area, kept going back to her own school. In the end, she just didn't go to school. She just would not go. We had been seeking the assistance from Headspace, but she refused see them any further. She refused to see our GP, who was wonderful. She wouldn't go and see him. She stopped all her out of school activities like she was into dance. She refused. Well, she said, I don't want to do that anymore. She was playing in a hockey team since she was tiny. She wouldn't go back to that. And then eventually she wouldn't leave her bedroom and she wouldn't have the blinds open. She had to stay in the dark. She'd only leave to go to the toilet. She wouldn't shower, she wouldn't clean her teeth and would only eat in her bedroom. And then her sleep patterns reversed. She was awake all night and asleep all day.

Leisa Reichelt: 11:06

How were you when all of this was going on, Jennie?

Jennie Plummer: 11:09

you know what I was more worried about? The Department of Education being on my back'cause my brother has a child that struggled with School Can't since kindergarten. She was two years younger than my daughter and they were sent to court and I was waiting for that. I of course was worried about my daughter but that added pressure. It's like you have to get to school'cause I can't afford for this to happen, but it's really sad'cause that took time from me for my daughter with me worrying about keeping the school and Department of Education happy, which shouldn't have been. But in the end, my GP got a medical certificate and that covered her. And it was actually through listening to the people from School Can't that I started taking a step back and taking a completely different approach.

Leisa Reichelt: 12:05

When you found that group and started engaging in some of the conversations what were some of the key things that were.

Jennie Plummer: 12:12

The big thing was repeatedly to get her assessed and diagnosed, and they're saying she sounds like she does have either ADHD or Autism or both. And to help support her mentally, and to take all pressure off, allow her time away from school. Not to listen to family and not to be pressured by the school or society's expectations basically. And I'm so glad I listened to all those wonderful people with lived experience because here we are today doing quite well now.

Leisa Reichelt: 12:51

That's fantastic. So Bethany's kind of in her room not doing much at all, you realized that taking the demands off

Jennie Plummer: 13:02

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 13:02

was the key to it. What was the pathway back to where she is now from there?

Jennie Plummer: 13:07

It was very slow, baby steps. My GP, without seeing her actually prescribed Fluoxetine And put her on a waiting list to see telehealth psychiatrist,'cause there's none up here that we could access. That Fluoxetine actually took the edge off enough for her to be receptive to some things. And one of those things, I knew she loved horses and her best friend had horses. So I leased a horse. Now it was really baby steps. I was paying all this money for the horse and she'd go out maybe once a week for 10 minutes and just patted it and brushed it. But over time she was eventually riding it. Then I bought her her own horse, which just motivated her even more. Also the psychiatrist diagnosed her at first with ADHD, and when she was put on the dexa mphetamine that helped her, I think, like I could see a difference in her mood even with that. And if she doesn't take it now and has rest days, I can see the difference when she's not on it. It was very slow. That's the thing I need to emphasize, that it's not a quick process. It is baby steps and sometimes steps backwards. She then started not going out to the horse, but I backed off and then before I knew it, she was asking to go out. But if I asked her, do you want to go out to the horse? It'd make her not want to go. She said, every time you asked me, I felt I couldn't go, even if I wanted.

Leisa Reichelt: 14:52

There's that PDA profile, huh?

Jennie Plummer: 14:54

She said, because you told me to, it felt like a task. That's her words. Even though she loved the horse, I made it into a task accidentally.

Leisa Reichelt: 15:04

Yeah. I know this is like this parenting journey, isn't it? Is that you, you're trying so hard and then you do something that you think is gonna be helpful and the next thing you know, you set everyone back half a dozen steps it is so hard.

Jennie Plummer: 15:17

It's a lot of learning by trial and error and listening to other people's stories is really helpful.

Leisa Reichelt: 15:24

And did you have some good professional help around you as well? I mean, they got the prescriptions right, which is great,

Jennie Plummer: 15:29

The first psychiatrist she saw with telehealth thought that she did have ADHD, but he wanted her school reports and of course primary school, she did so well. He said she doesn't meet the criteria even though we did, I think it was, uh, a Conners or whatever it was and she flagged on that. He said because of her school reports, her high achievement, she doesn't have ADHD. But the second psychiatrist just by talking and asking me about her history and everything. He goes, oh, she definitely has ADHD and probably Autism as well, straight away.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:15

Such a gulf isn't there? Between the professionals who have seen this more feminine presentation and the ones who haven't or haven't recognized it, like it's just a world apart, isn't it?

Jennie Plummer: 16:26

It is. And the second psychiatrist whom she's still under, he didn't even ask us to do the Conners or anything like that. And it wasn't until she ended up in her alternative school that she got formally assessed with paperwork,

Leisa Reichelt: 16:43

Hmm.

Jennie Plummer: 16:44

definitely had it.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:45

How long would you say Bethany was going through this burnout stage?

Jennie Plummer: 16:48

Oh, a good eight months, Well over a year, but the worst of the worst was eight months.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:55

And then at one point she did feel ready to go back to school.

Jennie Plummer: 17:00

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:01

What happened there?

Jennie Plummer: 17:02

She had a friend who's autistic as well, and she started attending a local alternative special assistant school, and my daughter asked. Could she go and have a look? And again, I did the wrong thing and thought, oh no, there's some bad kids in that school. And I actually spoke to the deputy principal at her mainstream high school, he said, it's full of troubled kids. They do a good job, but she might get influenced and become a criminal. Anyway, in the end, my daughter wasn't doing anything. She wouldn't go to TAFE, any of my suggestions. We were going to homeschool and we were waiting for that process. I gave in to her nagging, so to speak, and went and looked at the school and had an interview, and I thought, you know what? This might work. Before we'll know it, she was enrolled there and quite happy

Leisa Reichelt: 18:04

What was it about the school that made you think this might work

Jennie Plummer: 18:08

Just speaking to the staff there, they had a completely different approach. They were thinking of my daughter's mental well being than just focusing on academics and you will attend, you will wear your uniform. It was an approach I had never come across before and I could see why Bethany might want to go there. They talked about the activities they do. How their day is structured and that they've got their own clinical psychologist and their own educational psychologist. And I just thought, oh, we should probably give this a try. And we never looked back. It was the best thing.

Leisa Reichelt: 18:51

How's Bethany doing today? What's life like for her now?

Jennie Plummer: 18:54

She obtained a traineeship in early childhood education at a local daycare center, walking distance from our house. She was offered it full-time, but advocated for herself strongly and said, I want to go part-time. She was going four days a week, plus she was working at a local cafe. Because at the alternative school, she learned, barista skills and qualifications, and they actually got her work in a local cafe. Anyway, she got this traineeship and she still works part-time at the cafe for extra cash and she's now, this week, been offered work, part-time to assist her farrier doing his rounds.

Leisa Reichelt: 19:46

Wow.

Jennie Plummer: 19:47

She finds it hard doing the one thing full time. She needs variety and she went up to four days per week and I was pushing for five, and she said, don't push me, otherwise I'll end up in burnout and won't go to work at all. And then a psychiatrist said, listen to her, and I did. Anyway, so she's going three days a week at the daycare center and working with the farrier and the cafe when she feels she's capable. She's really excited about working with the farrier, and I can see that being a second permanent part-time thing

Leisa Reichelt: 20:30

Wow. They find their own way in the end, don't they?

Jennie Plummer: 20:33

Absolutely. I didn't think she would, but she

Leisa Reichelt: 20:37

Mm

Jennie Plummer: 20:38

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 20:38

Just following the passions.

Jennie Plummer: 20:40

Yeah, and it wasn't what I was expecting for her. I thought that she'd go and do her HSC but I've changed my thinking, I'm glad that she's happy doing what she's doing. I'm really proud of her.

Leisa Reichelt: 20:55

Yeah, I know she probably has learned so much about herself, but as part of this journey, I think we as parents learn so much as well, don't we?

Jennie Plummer: 21:04

Yes.'cause the funny thing was I didn't push my eldest son into the tertiary education path, but her, I was thinking, there's no reason why you can't do it. And now she's talking about doing that eventually. Under her own terms and pace. So it's interesting when you back off what happens.

Leisa Reichelt: 21:28

It really is, isn't it really is.

Jennie Plummer: 21:30

i wasn't really strict with her, I was just encouraging, but that was enough to put her off and stress her.

Leisa Reichelt: 21:38

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Sometimes it is even the positive reinforcement that can become pressure. I know if my son's had a good week and I talk about, oh, it's such a good week, that is like pressure for him to make sure that next week weighs up to the same as this week and then that can make the wheels fall off.

Jennie Plummer: 21:54

Exactly. And even with pleasure activities, I can ruin that in a second,

Leisa Reichelt: 22:00

I completely ruined a movie yesterday. Like really badly.

Jennie Plummer: 22:04

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 22:06

Accidentally. Yeah,

Jennie Plummer: 22:07

That it, it's a constant thing with us, but I'm learning too,

Leisa Reichelt: 22:10

exactly,

Jennie Plummer: 22:11

parenting approach completely now.

Leisa Reichelt: 22:14

My son does tell me. I'm a very slow learner at this stuff though.

Jennie Plummer: 22:17

but my daughter, I'm really proud that she can advocate for herself now. Before she wouldn't be brave enough to speak up. Now, she'll tell you.

Leisa Reichelt: 22:28

Such an important skill, isn't it, for them to be able to do well through their life, to have that self-advocacy like it's such a valuable skill.

Jennie Plummer: 22:36

That school she went to in the end built that into her. They boosted her self-esteem and I noticed when she left there that she was starting to advocate for herself and be a lot braver'Cause she was in full School Can't, she wouldn't even go to a shop to buy herself a chocolate that she really wanted. She lacked the confidence to do anything. So to see her now is just amazing.

Leisa Reichelt: 23:07

Jennie, what's this been like for you? This has been, a bit of a rollercoaster journey. What's been the impact on your life of having to support your daughter through this?

Jennie Plummer: 23:16

It was a struggle financially, because I was a shift worker doing rotating rosters that didn't fit in. Also the financial cost of getting assessments done, even seeing the GP here, like it wasn't bulk billed then. And of course we were doing that every week that added up. The other issue was with family. My extended family did not understand at all and were on my back constantly, so that took a toll mentally.'Cause your family are meant to be like supporting you, but they were doing the opposite. They made me question my parenting. But then I brought up these stepchildren and older children and I'm thinking, how could I suddenly with the last one be a bad parent, you know? And also it was just stressful trying to figure out what was going on, walking on eggshells, everything upset her. I was trying so hard and I thought I was being nice sometimes it wasn't the right thing and there was constant stress of not triggering anything. My social life suffered because I was concentrating on her and also friends didn't understand what was going on. And then my routine, we live next to a big river, and I used to walk alongside the river or go to the beach. That all stopped like. It was all put on hold, which wasn't good mentally or physically for me either.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:06

Definitely takes a toll, doesn't it? It's like your life goes on hold for a while, doesn't it? While you just really focus on getting theirs back on track.

Jennie Plummer: 25:14

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 25:14

Bethany's doing well again. Now, hopefully you've got a little bit more time for yourself.

Jennie Plummer: 25:19

yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 25:19

Let's just go to our final three closing questions, if that's alright, Jennie.

Jennie Plummer: 25:25

Yep.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:25

The first one is if you could go back in time and tell yourself something, when would you go back to and what would you say?

Jennie Plummer: 25:32

I would go back to year five and six in primary school because that's when the social issues started and I thought it was just puberty. No, there were problems. Secondly, should have looked back and looked at everything. I was scaffolding. She couldn't remember to bring anything to school unless I packed her bag for her. She wouldn't have known to do homework, nothing. And even then, I still got phone calls from the school saying she didn't bring her hat. She can't play in a playground. And yet I handed the hat to her, which is the ADHD, like she was so unorganized at home and wouldn't follow multi-step instructions. And I scaffolded by giving one and two steps, but didn't have a conscious thought about that at all. But now I can see what it was. The other thing I would do was get diagnosis earlier, like even if I didn't think she had it, still, go ahead and seek professional help. And the other thing is, and the most important thing is have a introspective approach. Have a look at yourself, your own ideas, your own expectations and have a good think. Uh, am I pushing my own agenda onto my daughter? am I wanting her to do this, this, and this? That's my goals, not hers. That's a big one.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:15

It's a hard one to step away from though, isn't it?

Jennie Plummer: 27:17

and also to realize that success isn't going to uni and having lots of money. Success is getting by within your means happily and with your mental health intact.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:35

Absolutely, a hundred percent. So, Jennie, if there was one thing that you could say to everyone who's listening, who's on their own School Can't journey, what would you, what would you like them to know?

Jennie Plummer: 27:45

Like I just touched on, listen to your child, support their mental health. Don't be pressured by family or society. Go with your gut. Like a lot of times I eventually went with my gut and it was correct. Don't panic.'cause given the right support, your child will come out of this eventually and they will find their own path. But be prepared for it to be not the path you had envisioned for them. It's their life, their story, and they'll find their own way.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:29

Those are very wise words. And then just in terms of resources, can you tell us about a, a resource or a couple of resources if you like, that you've used on this journey that you think everyone should know about?

Jennie Plummer: 28:42

Well, the greatest resource was this one, like the School Can't listening to the stories of people with lived experience. It was invaluable, and it was only through them that I got her assessed, that I allowed her the rest in her room and got medical certificates. They were my constant source really, of support and wonderful information. When we were going down the homeschooling path, people gave me heaps of information with that. Just very helpful. The other thing is don't disregard your GP. Our GP was fantastic, really, really good.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:29

Did, did you want to name drop the school at all or,

Jennie Plummer: 29:33

Nautilus College at Port Macquarie.They were fantastic. Can't speak more highly..

Leisa Reichelt: 29:40

Well it's an amazing story, Jennie. Thank you so much for sharing it with us, and I'm really glad to hear that Bethany's doing so well today. I hope, I hope you do really well also.

Jennie Plummer: 29:51

Okay. Thank you so much. I hope it helps people.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:54

I'm sure it absolutely will. Well, that was a wonderful story, wasn't it? And if you've heard a few of these lived experience episodes by now, I bet you are also picking up on the recurring themes of trusting your gut as a parent, trusting and really hearing your young person when they're telling us that something is not right. And how good is it to hear stories of our School Can't young people finding their way back to thriving in the world again. We hope to share many more lived experience episodes. And if you have a School Can't story that you would like to share, please email us at schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. That's one word schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. We've put a link to the School Can't Australia website and Facebook community that Jennie recommended in the episode notes and also a link to donate to School Can't Australia. Your tax deductible donations assist us to raise community awareness, partner with researchers, produce resources like webinars, and this podcast, which all assist people who are supporting children and young people experiencing School Can't. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, remember you can always call the parent helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the show notes. Thanks again for listening, and we will talk again soon. Take care.