#14 Neurodiversity Affirming Therapy with Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures

In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by School Can’t Australia’s Tiffany Westphal and expert guest, Anna Clarke, to discuss the importance of neurodiversity affirming care. 

Anna, a psychologist and play therapist, shares her personal and professional journey as a late-diagnosed autistic and ADHD individual. The conversation explores the principles and challenges of neuro affirming care, the role of play therapy in connecting with neurodivergent children, and the significance of consent in therapeutic settings. 

Parents and carers will gain valuable insights into advocating for their neurodivergent children and finding the right professional support.

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

01:09 Meet Anna Clarke: A Journey to Neurodivergent Affirming Care

02:43 Understanding Play Therapy

08:30 The Importance of Consent in Therapy

17:20 Challenges in Finding Neurodiversity Affirming Practitioners

33:20 Guidance for Parents Seeking Neurodiversity Affirming Practitioners

37:15 Conclusion and Resources

Recommended Resources

• Divergent Futures - https://www.divergentfutures.com/
• How to be a good neurodivergent ally (PDF) - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/650b364b717f4b135be85c38/t/6800c11b72e0f14456551c18/1744879917597/How+to+be+a+good+ally+Neuroaffirming+edition.pdf

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more of us around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today I'm joined by Tiffany Westphal from School Can't Australia, as well as Anna Clarke. Anna is a psychologist and play therapist, as well as a professional educator on neuro affirming care at her company called Divergent Futures. In this episode, we unpack what neurodivergent affirming care looks like and why it's so critical for our neurodivergent young people. Anna also gives us a bit of a sneak peek behind the professional curtain as to why neuro affirming care can be so difficult to find and some advice on how parents and carers can be more confident in advocating for the right level of care for our kids. Let's do it. Thank you so much for joining us today. What's your background story, Anna? What do we need to know about you? What's brought you to where you are today?

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 1:15

Okay, so yeah, I'm Anna. I'm autistic and ADHD. I'm a psychologist and a play therapist and a mental health advocate in general, I'm a late diagnosed neurodivergent person, I had initially started my career more in the social workspace, doing a lot of work with children and young people in out-of-home care, foster care, involved with child protection services, that kind of thing. And then, as I started studying psychology later on, that's when I walked into a new clinic where I had a placement and everyone looked at me and told me I needed to go get diagnosed as being autistic and ADHD 'cause it was a clinic that was very much focussed on neurodiversity affirming practice. I sought my own diagnosis, which confirmed it pretty quickly. So when I got the diagnosis, everything suddenly started falling into place to help me make a bit more sense of my life. That sort of inspired me and I was fortunate enough to collaborate with a colleague called Monique Mitchelson, to create a company called Divergent Futures, which focuses on education and training about neurodiversity. So we really are trying to share those messages about affirming practice so that, I guess things are caught a lot earlier for others, and we can get all of that good information out there now.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:42

Fantastic. I wanna do a little teeny tiny diversion, if you don't mind. Play therapist. Can you talk a little bit about play therapy and what a play therapist does?

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 2:52

So, like I said, I had a background working in social work before I went and finished my psychology training. And when I was a social worker, working specifically in out of home care, I realized that I felt like the days where I was actually doing something beneficial was where I was kind of sitting and playing with kids, living in foster care or residential care. It wasn't these big, deep and meaningful conversations or anything. It was when there was a child going through a lot and they had the opportunity to just sit with someone and play Uno, right? it was, such a small moment that it was like a bit of normal in life and you could see them smile and actually having a kid experience. I realized then I sort of actually pivoted away from psychology. And ended up back there without really meaning to, but I went and did a Master's of Play Therapy instead of a Master's of Psychology. I'm so glad I did because play therapy is very trauma informed and it's very much about, rather than like teaching a lot of psychological strategies or things, it's really meeting a child where they're at. But using play games, toys, different things to help with communication, which when you actually stop and think about it, makes a lot more sense than talk based interventions because the prefrontal cortex or the front parts of kids' brains aren't even developed to have those conversations. So play is actually a child's language and how they understand the world. So it really is giving you the tools to actually connect with them. So you can do lots with play therapy, but the basic gist of it is that you are having a developmentally appropriate conversation and intervention with a child. You might be helping them to process emotions in a way that words just can't, 'cause they don't have the words. Or there's specific things I might be doing to increase executive functioning supports and, and the like, or script out different scenarios. Not like, you know, non affirming social stories or things like that, but to actually be able to demonstrate something but it's using something that's engaging and often helping them make sense of it in their own way. Yeah, so I love it.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:12

Yeah, I feel like we could spend a full episode just talking about play therapy because what it makes me think is that a lot of parents who have got School Can't kids,

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 5:20

Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:20

I. Know that they need to do things like understand what the stressors are, understand what's going on for the kids so that they can think about how to, step in and get accommodations for 'em and work out what to do. But a lot of those kids, I think, and certainly, it was my experience, there's no language.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 5:39

No.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:40

Like they can't verbally communicate what's going on for them. And I wonder whether play therapy is something that could help a lot in that sort of situation.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 5:48

no, play therapy is beautiful for that. Yeah, children don't have the words. Not just because they physically don't know them yet, or we ask them, you know, tell me how you're feeling and adult struggles to answer that, or Why aren't you going to school? they don't know a lot of the time but the play side, you can see it. you can see what they're showing you and what it feels like. And I guess they can just tell you what they're feeling in ways where words just don't reach. So it's really powerful.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 6:19

I think I've noticed that it is really powerful in just simply connecting, sometimes in a positive way because lots of our kids have had really negative experiences with connecting with adults. Sometimes in the context of school or in the context of therapy, even where they've felt that, they've been blamed or shamed or judged for the way that they're feeling or what's going on. And so just simply having a shared activity, doing something with someone that's fun or that enables you to be in the moment and have that kind of connection with somebody is so important. And especially if we're going to eventually, you know, seek more information from that student, they have to feel safe with you. They have to feel connected to you.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 7:03

it's a non pressured way. 'cause often, you know, by the time that a School Can't going off, often by the time a child is coming to see you, they have been asked so many questions about why they're not going to school, what's wrong? Like, you know, just question after question in your face. So having play where it doesn't require verbal processing, but also it's often very low demand they do communicate and they tell you what's going on, but not in the first session. I'm not gonna pretend that I get that information within five sessions, 10, whatever. But we do over time. And it does get better, because they've had the space to actually express it. Over time when they're ready with someone they trust. Because ultimately I don't deserve to hear how a child's feeling if I don't have their trust first. And unlike adults who could just choose to get up and leave a therapy space or never come back to see me. I have an huge, inordinate amount of power in my role. And there's huge issues with consent with kids because, and also informed consent with families who are often feeling very pressured by an education system and other dynamics as well. So there's, a child who's experiencing challenges at school or there's School Can't going on, there is a lot of added dynamics that makes me a threatening person to them before they've even walked in the door.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 8:30

Can we talk about the consent thing a bit more, Leisa?

Leisa Reichelt: 8:33

Yeah, but before we pivot on that, I just wanna say this makes me feel a lot better about the amount of time that my son spends playing Exploding Kittens with his psychologist.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 8:43

love

Leisa Reichelt: 8:43

I'm like, clocks ticking, clocks ticking, money's burning, and you are playing Exploding Kittens. But you know, the way that you talk about it makes it make a lot more sense. And, the connection that he has with this psychologist, I think is much better than he is ever had with any previous, because of the time that they spend in those kinds of ways.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 9:01

Yeah.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 9:02

Exploding Kittens is one of my favorite games because not only are you having fun and connecting, but you're also learning about the nervous system because it's a game where you feel that tension inside you as you go. Oh, is the exploding kitten coming up

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 9:15

But thats the thing where it looks like 'just playing' but you can use a game like Exploding Kittens to have a whole conversation about emotions. And we call it indirect teaching. So we're teaching, but we're not having a direct conversation in it. But the skills are still going in. So there's a lot of misconceptions about, oh, you know, the therapist just sits down and plays and it's like, you've got no idea, the mental gymnastics I'm doing internally right now to try and get this education in. In a way that's tolerable, that doesn't get you to disengage. Because then if you've got very few connections, we're never gonna get you, to where you want to be, not to where you need to be. It's making sure they're okay, first and foremost. So I'd rather spend another session. For me, I've never used Exploiting Kittens, but I have had a lot of games of Uno.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:05

Yeah, absolutely. Consent, What do we wanna talk about there?

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 10:08

I think it's such an important topic to talk about so that parents are aware of the issues. Parents sometimes do things where they have coerced a child to attend an appointment or bribed them. You know, I'll take you and we'll do this afterwards. You'll have this treat. Or they'll bring another parent along just to ensure that the kid goes to the appointment that's not a young person that's consenting to engagement with you.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 10:38

yeah. I think what I'd say on that is that, 'cause it's really tricky because sometimes children are really burnt out and don't wanna go or they do need a push or a bribe or something sometimes to get there. And then we've got that question of, well, is that consent or coercion? And there's a balancing act there because I definitely know that there are some times, and with some kids I'm working with and some days as well with parents where they're like, okay, we needed a bit of a bribe to, to get there today. But once they're there, they're enjoying it, they're engaged. And it's not the therapy itself or the relationship with me, that's the barrier. It might be transitioning between activities or some demand avoidance that's there, but when I ask them. Is it hard to get your child here to see me? 'cause I wanna know about that. Like, if you are having to, to use a bribe every single week, that's really, really important information for me to have versus maybe something to get them through the door the first couple of times. But if things have been going okay and suddenly that changes, that's a huge red flag for me that they might not be feeling safe with me anymore. There's other times where I will tend to be reasonably flexible around some cancellation fees. Like, there's obviously a limit around that, and that's different for everybody. But because if a child's completely burnt out and then you're having to bribe them to come to therapy, they're absolutely outta spoons, right? they've just got no energy left. I think that's a bit of a problem, but I find that it's less of a problem to get kids to therapy when they know that the demands are low or safe when they're in there. So even on days where some kids are really burnt out, I'm like, well bring them in, but we can just play cards for the session and keep that connection going. Or I can sit with them for an hour and reflect on how burnt out they are and just let them flop. Or kids will come in and do sensory play with me for an hour and that's given them the chance to regulate enough to then not go home and have a massive fight 'cause they've had that flop time. So I think it's a tricky balance because we know sometimes kids need some of that to then participate to begin with. But we've also, gotta look at the line. Well, when are we just forcing them into something where if they were an adult they'd just walk away.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 13:10

What you've just described there, Anna, is attunement to what's going on with the client so you can read the signs and follow their lead a bit And sometimes we take our kids to see therapists, but. they have an agenda of, you know, what they wanna do in that session, And they don't read those signs of what's the child or young person got capacity for today, and there's no attunement there. And so it doesn't feel safe for the young person. And so I think it's important for, you know, parents who might be listening to, to go well when the kid starts to say, I don't like going. And this, we can come round to talking about neurodiversity affirming practice as well here, because this is, you know, that's another red flag that kids go, I don't feel accepted here. I don't feel safe here.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 13:59

I work with parents I really feel for them because in certain situations with what they've been told with professionals, because they are being almost gaslit to stop attuning to what their child is telling them. Because it's like, well, no, we've gotta take them to the expert and get this done. But you can see that then the parent, that attachment with the child's almost being ruptured because the parent's caught between those two systems. It's Its really, really sad.

Leisa Reichelt: 14:29

even when you have great professionals that you're working with though. I can tell you two very recent examples for me with my son. Last week, the worst part of our week was the day that he had to go to see his psychiatrist. Great psychiatrist, lovely guy. Neither of us have got an issue with him. He just goes in, has a chat, gets his medication and off he goes. It's all fine. But on this particular morning, I was like, okay, we've gotta go have our meeting with the doctor. He's like, okay. And then half an hour before we had to go, he's like, no, I'm not feeling it. I can't do it. And it turned into a big thing. 350 bucks this guy cost me. And like, when, when am I gonna get another appointment with him? 'cause he's busy. I've no idea. and you need to get your prescription and all of these things. I'm like, how to handle that? it's very stressful. And so for me, I have to find a way to get in there and there is a rupture in the parent child connection because I think, I'll make it as easy as possible. I'm not gonna force you to go. We've been there before and I've said to him, if you wanna sit out in the waiting room the whole time, you can do that. You don't have to talk to him if you don't wanna talk to him. But we do have to go. It's difficult. And then with his psychologist, they have a great relationship. But some days. He just really doesn't have the spoons to be able to go. occasionally I'm just like, fine, I'll go and talk to his psychologist because, I spend a lot of time with my son. I've got a fairly good idea of some good hypotheses of what's going on we can compare notes a little bit and that can be really helpful. But it is hard when you're like, that's hundreds of dollars,

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 16:00

You can feel under pressure can't you And And not just that, you know, there's wait lists. So if it seems to be going south, you've gotta get on a wait list for somebody else and that takes time and you can be without support for long periods

Leisa Reichelt: 16:11

and they often don't give us a lot of notice. The kids often don't give you 24 or 40 hours Like notice you, you get like half an hour notice,

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 16:20

I will say from that professional's perspective as well, because I think we need to have these open ongoing conversations with each other. things can get very... they're just really complex and there's certain places I work at that have a strict cancellation policy. And then there's others, like when I'm working for myself more because I'm a neurodivergent clinician and I do have to take some mental health days I'm a little bit more flexible 'cause I believe that's give and take But if there are people who are repeatedly canceling. What I will do is send a parent email, have a phone call, trying to do something where, we still need to be paid for our time because, you know, there's more overheads than people would ever really expect that we do have. But I do think that, part of that neurodiversity affirming approach is needing to go, well, I'm being paid for this hour, so what am I gonna do that's still benefiting that family in some way. I think they're the conversations that we need to have and that can balance both parties out.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:20

One of the other challenges that, that parents have, I think, is we hear this term neuro affirming and we believe that it's important because like lots of us have got a neurodiverse kids. Anna, what does neuroaffirming actually mean? What does it look like when we see it in the world?

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 17:40

I think it's a really important conversation because neurodiversity affirming best practice standards are now getting into our clinical guidelines everywhere, which is fantastic. It's what we've wanted. In my mind and other people can agree or disagree, but what defines being affirming in my mind is the intention behind what we we're doing. So we know that there are a lot of people who you know, will speak about different therapy formats and let's say, you know, behaviorist therapies or different interventions like that and say, you know, they, they're non affirming. I think one of the things it's going like, what is the intention that we're trying to do with something? Are we trying to change a behavior or put an intervention in place because we're trying to fix something that we're seeing is wrong or in need of curing. Or are we trying to support a need and put a support need in place, or, you know, build a skill because that is something that is in the best interest of that person and it's coming from that strengths-based lens, not a, we need to get the person with a disability or a difference to adhere to some social standard. And so where I think there's a little bit of a nuance within that is that there are some, I'll use play therapy as an example. So there's been some interesting debates with how affirming a particular type or types of play therapy are, and one of them is where I will actually teach some pretend play intervention to children. And I love this intervention. And there's been criticisms that it's not affirming because it's like, well, you're just trying to teach like an autistic kid to pretend play. What I would say to that is, if the child has no interest in that, I'm not gonna force them to do it. However, there's other times where that child, once they understand what the pretend play is. So to, to use a concrete example, okay, everyone in the playground is playing like the floor is lava, okay? And everyone's running around having fun, and this autistic child is not seeing the same thing. It's like the floor is concrete, not lava. But in a therapy session, once I've actually broken down what's going on in their peer's head, then they can keep up and they actually do want to play it. So you see how there I'm not teaching it because like that kid's way of playing is wrong, but it's because, oh, once I actually knew what was happening, I want to do it. At the same time, a neurodiversity affirming perspective is making sure that teachers and the other kids know, Hey, there's nothing wrong with the fact that he still thinks the floor is concrete. You are both seeing it differently and both of you need to adapt. But the problem doesn't just exist within him. If he's doing or leading the play a certain way, that's probably 'cause he doesn't understand, not 'cause he's being rude. I know that's kind of like a, a very neurodivergent type, tangential answer there, but I, I like to illustrate it with a few examples like that too. It's gotta come back to the why we are doing something and make sure that the responsibility is put as just as much on environmental adaptations as individual change within the person.

Leisa Reichelt: 21:02

This might sound like a dumb question. Maybe it is a dumb question. Is there an expectation that before you become neuro affirming, you actually become like properly neuro aware or something like that? I mean, part the experience that I've had, and I'm sure many other parents have had as well, is the ongoing search to try to find therapists who actually really properly understand our neurodiverse kids. We went through a parade of psychologists who claimed that they were experts in autism, who pretty clearly to me now in retrospect, maybe didn't have the level of expertise that I would've anticipated them having, but I, I assume that's an obvious question. Like you have to know what it is in order to affirm it. Right.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 21:50

what I, what I wanna do here and I guess I'm gonna, the way I am gonna frame this is 'cause there's a lot of frustration, burnout, anger, like across the board around coming to a service and then people saying they're affirming and they're not, and frankly they need to be. I'm with you. What I wanna explain though, is a little bit about the professional context that we're in in Australia, because I think when we understand why something's happening, that can help us be a little bit more savvy with knowing where to go and what to do. So I'm doing my PhD in this area about neurodiversity affirming practice., What I would say is going on is we have what's called a research to practice gap. So what that means is that all of the research about autism and ADHD and neurodiversity is the fastest moving rate in psychology of any area. So the literature, the landscape about autism and ADHD has changed so much in the last five years that even as someone researching it, every time I sit down to start a new paper, I almost burst into tears because there is too much to catch up with. So what was taught in our universities about autism and ADHD is not just five years outdated, it's 20 years outdated. Like it's still, what we went and paid for in our fancy degrees it's not anywhere near the best practice standards. I've just been at a conference over the weekend where I have stepped out of my neurodiversity affirming bubble into a training space with professionals not trained in this space. And I feel like I've got whiplash and I'm just like, is this still how far behind we are? Because what you have to do is then rely on the fact that the professional you are seeing has actually then done continuous professional development. And if it's professional development about autism and ADHD, you've gotta be doing it pretty constantly at the moment because it is moving so quickly. So my learning curve about autism and ADHD has been over the past three years, and it's basically the equivalent of another degree of learning to go and unlearn all of the internal biases and everything that I knew that my degree taught me in the first place. I have the advantage in that I have the lived experience of it and I also know the pain and the consequence of being the recipient of care from a therapist who doesn't get it. But we're in this really weird space where everything that everyone was taught at uni was wrong. So now you've gotta stumble across this new professional development. And it's not a one-off training. This isn't a, I'm gonna go learn a little bit extra about depression. This is, I have to commit to undoing every bias I learned. So that's the dilemma that we've got with that research to practice gap is that people actually, I think, think they're being affirming, but they're not.

Leisa Reichelt: 24:49

Yeah, that makes lots of sense. A lot of parents I think, come to try to seek help in sort of moments of crisis, right? Like things are going really badly and they desperately need somebody to help. And the yes, they're probably gonna have to wait for ages, need to get, get on a waiting list that's actually open. And so, you know, you might be inclined to sort of go with whoever can see me rather than finding the best possible fit early on.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 25:14

I think you've named the problem well of like, is something better than nothing? You know, should we get in and, and get them to see someone? I think it depends to be, I'll be pretty honest and upfront about that because with very non affirming approaches, I think they can actually be damaging. And I'll name that like right up front, that the level of shaming and that that can go on If it's like, okay, we're gonna get you back to school at any and all costs, regardless of what's actually going on with your mental health versus if there's someone perhaps who's trying but doesn't quite get it, but there's still value in components of what they're teaching. I think that's still really, really massively helpful. What I guess I would encourage with parents though, is make sure that parents have access to education and, and peer networks as well, so that they can talk and fact check around this person's giving me this bit of advice or treating my kid this way. What's the go? Because It actually might be the parent that's ending up, fielding their kid from some of the non-affirmative content or actually advocating for their kid and setting that boundary which you shouldn't have to do. Like, that's so much extra load to put on you. We should be doing better as an industry completely. But being able to say, I am okay if we go slower with my kid. I would rather that than, than push through or, you know what, I don't even want us to talk about school at the moment. Let's just focus on some anxiety techniques or whatever it is. I think that there's ways that parents can use what they know and what feels right in their gut with their knowledge about neurodiversity to protect their kid in that space a little bit. I wanna make sure that parents can feel more confident in going, this doesn't feel right for me. You know, this person doesn't feel right for my kid. But having, I guess, a little bit more confidence in knowing what to look for so that they can protect their family within that.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 27:16

I can remember my own daughter, I took her to a psychologist. She'd seen a number of psychologists over the years. But you know, at one point she said to me, mum, psychology is making me feel worse. I'm not feeling better. This is adding to my sense of I'm just not okay, or I'm not a good person, or I need to be different, or I need to be less this or more that. And there's layers of shame that our kids carry and there's this trust that parents have that they're paying a lot of money to see someone and they're expecting it's going to be safe. And so having the courage as a parent, you're being called on to make a decision about whether something's helpful or harmful when you don't necessarily feel like you've got the professional background to make that decision.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 28:03

Yeah, totally. And you should be able to trust us as health professionals because we should be worthy of trust. You should be able to take your child to a psychologist and know they're gonna be helped to not harmed. So I guess in answer to your question about what are some of the things that are non affirming, I think it's when questioning kids about what's going on, where it makes it like the child's just choosing to not go to school or choosing to do something. That it's a choice and that they just need to try harder. So that's the immediate red flag for me. There is any approach where we're going, it's a lack of discipline, it's laziness. okay, there is a non affirming approach right there. I think, you know, when we're talking about the consequences of that, it's the, the shaming because as well, like as a kid with less life experience and the power dynamics of being taught to obey and follow and believe adults, what you internalize then is like, I'm the problem. I'm the failure. And that's what I do trauma therapy on with adults who were told all of those messages.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 29:14

Yeah, and I think even more than that, you know, the stresses and barriers get ignored, so they never get identified. Because the difficulty is positioned as being within the child rather than a difficulty they're having in their environment. And so no, no support is then provided.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 29:30

And one of the things that I have issues with, is that we know that when we are repeatedly stomping over someone and they're saying like, I don't like this. We teach them to not be attuned with their gut sense anymore. And I think that's a really dangerous consequence of all of this too, of you're overreacting. It's really dangerous. And that's a whole different topic. But that's another reason why I'm so passionate about this and the informed consent levels is because we need to model going with your gut sense and something doesn't feel safe or okay. Rather than that being flipped onto, oh, you are the one with the problem. I guess to give an example of that, there've been times I've worked with kids who are telling me about things at school. And you know, they're really angry that a teacher or someone's not listening to what they're saying. And I'm like, that tracks, there's nothing actually I can say that to make you not angry at that. 'cause that's a really appropriate response. To be angry that someone said that to you. If I was to just go, oh no, you need to get over that, or you still actually need to go back into that environment, what am I actually teaching a kid? how's that gonna set them up for life with, with their safety and other environments and contexts? It's just dangerous.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 30:45

Yeah, is dangerous. And I think also it's when our kids are positioned as being the problem or the problem is within them too, they internalise all this negative stuff about themselves which takes the further toll on their mental health and their wellbeing. And it deepens disconnection and they lose hope. And they can, they lose trust in, in adults. And I think that's the worst thing is, you know, when they, they just have lost trust that adults can help them at all.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 31:17

And that is probably out of anything that I try and pass on the evidence base and all that shows us that it's the protective factors that save people's lives. So when there's adverse childhood experiences they've put out all of these studies and this research about what happens when children experience horrible things and all the negative outcomes. But then there were these ingenious people who were like, well, how can two people have the exact same story of bad things that one has done well? And there's a correlation and research pattern there with the protective factors. So, and those protective factors, it's called the benevolent childhood experiences. The 10 of these protective factors is, did you have a secure relationship with at least one parent, with one adult you trusted? Beliefs that gave you some level of comfort, opportunities to be yourself. And for every score on that benevolent childhood experiences, the more your number of that increases, the more that that can mitigate the negative impacts of the other. So beyond anything else, I don't care if the kids going back to school tomorrow, I care if they don't have a single adult that they trust because that is the bigger risk of a negative long-term outcome than school.

Leisa Reichelt: 32:34

As a parent too, prioritizing your connection with the child becomes then a, a massive thing for us to think about, right? Our, our connection, our trusting connection with our child is more important than making sure they get to school the next day.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 32:50

For those who want the stats and the research focus about it, the statistics about like, kids not going to school or the outcomes there. But we also then need to compare that to the statistics of kids who have attachment ruptures and no healthy relationships like that actually outweighs the poor educational outcomes. But that's not talked about., people deflect, by going, oh, it's just people being snowflakes about their emotions and all of that. It's like, no, it's actually backed up by evidence. It's a, it's a thing.

Leisa Reichelt: 33:20

Anna what kind of guidance can you give parents who are out there looking for neuro affirming practitioners? Be they psychologists or speech therapists or, you know, whatever, whatever it could be. How can we try to pick somebody who is neuro affirming without having to wait on the waiting list, do eight sessions, discover that they're not what you hope that they might be. Is there a, a process that we can do that can shortcut that so we are more likely to land with great people?

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 33:49

I can give you some questions to ask in general for people. So I think that key component of what training have you done in the last 12 months. I do not care if you were trained as an autism expert 10 years ago, that means absolutely nothing. 'cause it's moving too quickly and I'm reading it every single day. So I think that's a key question. I think asking about the clinician's perspective about what the goals are when you have told them a little bit of information about things, you can sort of see where are they prioritizing their approach. Like is it on, we're getting the kid back to school tomorrow and that's the goal, or is it we're keeping them safe and alive and preserving their mental health, like seeing where someone immediately prioritizes the attention and focus. I think that I would also say that if, if people are truly neurodiversity affirming, they also need to be trauma informed and vice versa. So I dunno if that helps or gives me,

Leisa Reichelt: 34:49

And do you think that

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 34:50

but yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 34:51

Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I, it would never have occurred to me to ask a speech pathologist, or a psychologist or anybody like that to tell me about the training that they've done in the last 12 months. Do they actually answer that question?

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 35:03

We should. I think people have a right to know. I have a care team of six people for myself. Like I still have very, very high support needs. I might not look like it. and I am picky and selective to say the least. For me, I would say there are people on my team where my knowledge about neurodiversity, far outstrips theirs, but they're where I need them to be with their trauma informed practice or vice versa. So it's like between different members of my team, I get elements of what I need. 'cause it is really hard to find one person who specializes in everything. So that's where I do think that having, especially, you know, when we're talking about OTs, speechy, psychs, like having little bits from everybody, I think is a much better approach than having just the one person. And I know that that's hard, but sometimes having a block of OT sessions, a block of speech, a block of psychology rather than three sessions in a week, gives you a diverse perspective with different people who can offer you different bits and pieces. I think that's something to think about as well, because even, someone like me, very knowledgeable in this space as well. I find it really challenging to find people.

Leisa Reichelt: 36:15

I wonder if we have parents who are working with health professionals, allied health schools, where they have people who are interested in learning more about being neuro affirming. can you make some recommendations as to like what parents could helpfully put in front of those people if they were willing to, take it on?

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 36:37

Well yeah, on our website, so that's divergent futures. We do have resources that we've made. One of the ones we've made recently is how to be a good neurodiversity affirming ally. So that's probably one that could be given directly to schools and teachers and the like. So my colleague Monique made that one, which is really great. And then we also do have information on there with general directories and things about where to go as well.

Leisa Reichelt: 37:04

That sounds very, very helpful. Thank you so much, Anna. It's been just wonderful having this conversation with you today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Anna Clarke, Divergent Futures: 37:11

No, thank you for all the work you're doing in this space as well. It's really important.

Leisa Reichelt: 37:15

Well, I hope you found that journey through neuro affirming care helpful. It's definitely interesting to understand the extreme change of pace that the psychology profession is having to deal with as they seek to understand neurodivergence better. It can be hard to find good support for our young people and for ourselves, and hopefully this gives you a little bit more confidence about what to look for and what you're entitled to expect, as well as how we can help keep our young people safe. If you have some other topics that you'd like us to cover, or if you have a School Can't lived experience you'd be willing to share, please email us at schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. We would very much like to hear from you. I'm gonna put the links to Divergent Futures website, as well as the guide to being a neuro affirming ally that Anna mentioned into the episode notes. I've also put a link to the School Can't Australia website and a link to donate to School Can't Australia. Your tax deductible donations assist us to raise community awareness, partner with researchers, produce resources like webinars, and this podcast, which all assist people who are supporting children and young people experiencing School Can't. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, remember you can always call the parent helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Thank you for listening, and we will talk again soon. Take care.