The School Can't Experience

#19 - Executive Function at School with Emma Brooksby

• School Can't Australia • Season 1 • Episode 19

Share episode

This week we’re talking with Emma Brooksby, Managing Director at U&I Educational Partners, about the demands school places on executive function.

Emma, who has ADHD and a background as a school principal, shares her journey and offers insights into how executive function challenges manifest in educational settings and ways to support students who have executive function challenges.

We explore strategies to help kids succeed despite executive function challenges and Emma also highlights alternative educational pathways and resources available.

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:55 Meet Emma Brooksby: From Principal to Advocate

01:20 Emma's Journey with ADHD and Executive Function

02:16 COVID-19 and the Opportunity for Educational Change

05:22 Founding U & I Educational Partners

06:14 Understanding Executive Function

09:22 Impact of Executive Dysfunction in School

14:01 Common Executive Function Challenges

07:17 Supporting Kids with Executive Function Issues

33:59 Alternative Educational Settings

37:34 Resources for Parents and Caregivers

38:27 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Recommended Resources

Send us a text

Support the show

If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you

You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com

Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Did you know that executive function or dysfunction can have a really big impact on our kids' experience of school? Well, we are joined today by Emma Brooksby, Managing Director at U&I Educational Partners. She's an ADHDer and a former school principal. And Emma is gonna help us understand some of those challenges better, as well as the opportunities to offer better support at school. Emma, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast.

Emma Brooksby :

Thank you for having me.

Leisa Reichelt:

I was wondering if you can start us off by just telling us a little bit about the story of Emma, what's brought you on your journey to who you are and what you're doing today?

Emma Brooksby :

Sure. Thank you very much for having me. I'm here because I used to be a school principal in Victoria, a primary school principal, and I worked with the Department of Education for 16, 17 years. Don't hold that against me. So, I was diagnosed ADHD informally in my early thirties. I'm now late forties, and I didn't take any form of medication until I was in my early forties. I started to struggle with executive functioning and managing the role of principal when I started that role and so I realized I should probably get some support for the ADHD that I'd been told that I had. So, formal diagnosis,

Leisa Reichelt:

you were diagnosed when you were still teaching?

Emma Brooksby :

yeah, yeah.

Leisa Reichelt:

then after you'd been diagnosed, you'd been carrying on with that, and you

Emma Brooksby :

Yep,

Leisa Reichelt:

to become a principal

Emma Brooksby :

yep.

Leisa Reichelt:

then hit your ceiling

Emma Brooksby :

yeah, the wheels started to fall off for me in terms of executive functioning and coping with the demands of the role. So, I got medicated and it was absolutely fantastic for me. It worked really well. The first one didn't work so great, but now working really well. So when COVID hit in 2020, particularly being in Victoria, we were subjected to some pretty severe lockdowns. I saw a real shift for what could have been for the education system. And I really sort of went, this is fantastic for some of our people, particularly my neurodivergent kin. A lot of them experienced great success in the remote learning and the way that we did it. I thought there was a real opportunity, going forward, but we might see some big system change. Everybody kind of knew that everything was gonna be different we were quite quick off the mark at the school to set things up. I knew we had to be really flexible for our community. So we basically threw everything out and the way that we approached it was to have the kids dip in and out as they needed to, but see the teachers every single day. We had a fair few students on site and that was something that we decided as a leadership team was gonna be good for our, for our kids. Being safe, of course. But it was that curriculum shift that gave freedom for our students in the way that they presented things, talked about things, engaged and the level of engagement and some, on the face of it weren't online a lot, but they did check in every single day, twice a day. Regular work was coming in through Google Docs and online and we saw some of our kids really thrive, because of the freedom to express themselves in their own home, use their pets as props, you know, be in their comfy clothes. And there was a real opportunity for the system of schooling to change and learn from it and grow. For me, it was exciting that we might see significant change because the sole reason I decided to pursue the principalship was leading a school. I thought, you know, real change. Was I perfect? No, I was absolutely not perfect. But I wanted to make change for the betterment of everybody. In a system as big as it is, I couldn't do it. After the end of 2020 and 2021 and the lockdowns finished. We as a system in Victoria resumed the status quo, it was come on kids, back you come, come on teachers, back you come. It didn't matter how well it worked for some people, including staff, we learned nothing. We changed nothing. Now other people may have, I'm only talking about my experience here. Mid 2021, I decided that the principalship and, teaching and leading as a whole wasn't for me anymore, but I knew I had to, I knew I had to do something I still wanted to be part of my community. I still wanted to be making a difference and doing things. I really want to help my neurodivergent kin to not experience the life that I have experienced. I didn't want the next generation and generations after that to come through not having their needs met and thinking they are less than. Or thinking that they need to be someone other than they are. I started U I Educational Partners, and we work with neurodivergent young people, children and adults. We bridge the gap between allied health and schools. We advocate for our people in school settings for reasonable adjustments we work one-on-one through NDIS capacity building, understanding ourselves as neurodivergent people and how we experience the world and how, we're not disabled. There are some systems in our society that make things disabling for us. Making sure that the negative feedback we get is tempered by the positives and the things we know about ourselves and how we learn. Removing those barriers to learning and life is what U I Educational Partners is about. And building up the toolkit so those barriers are removed.

Leisa Reichelt:

Okay, fantastic. So we wanted to focus on executive function today, Emma. We know lots of kids have different kinds of executive function struggles, particularly if they're in that neurodiverse community. And that can cause some challenges at school. What do we actually mean when we talk about executive function? What is it?

Emma Brooksby :

Well, it's the set of skills, that enable us to plan, solve problems and adapt to changing environments. So really there's three overarching areas of executive functioning, and that's working memory, cognitive flexibility and inhibition control. And within each big area, there are subsets within it. So within working memory, we're talking about retaining information, manipulating information, connecting information, and focusing. In cognitive flexibility, we're talking about switching between tasks, adapting to change, problem solving and perspective taking. In inhibition control we're talking about self-regulation, delay in gratification, task initiation and emotional regulation. It develops over time and the vast majority of it should be developed by age 12, but will extend certain aspects the depth and complexity of each bit as your brain develops, will continue into late teens up to 30 years of age. The research is ever evolving as we learn about our brains flexibility and plasticity of it.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah, I was going to ask about that. We have neurodivergence in our family and in various assessments that have been done at at different points. It's like, well, this is your score for working memory and it's a low centile. What do I do with the fact that there's a low working memory situation? Is our goal to think about how we sort of scaffold that shortcoming? I feel like I'm using all the wrong words, or are we trying to lean into neuroplasticity and improve performance? What are we doing?

Emma Brooksby :

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt:

here?

Emma Brooksby :

I, it can absolutely be improved. Um, I don't ever think the goal is to be, perfect in any way, shape or form, I know my executive functioning, planning an organization I'm great with. I can make as many plans as you like, but executing those plans through task initiation, I'm rubbish, absolute rubbish. So it depends, I guess on the individual. So you can say that working memory is really poor and often on the, the Whisk and whatnot it can show that. There are so many ways to build it up and we'll get into that, you can absolutely at any age. Harvard's Center on the Developing Child, they have a range of things you can download for nothing, about enhancing and practicing executive function skills from infancy through adulthood. There are ways to improve it across the lifespan, if you need to. So if it isn't impacting the individual, then the score doesn't matter. It's when it's impacting the individual and the people they love and care about that it's a problem.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Kids who are experiencing executive functioning challenges, how is that going to impact in the school environment? What are we gonna see typically?

Emma Brooksby :

Executive dysfunction, particularly challenges with working memory and cognitive flexibility can hugely impact our kids' ability to navigate the demands of school. So we're talking about difficulties with emotional regulation and behavioral control as well. It's can make it hard to cope with the whole nature of schooling. So when you're looking at School Can't and why our people might be having School Can't issues, It can impact an ability to remember instructions, to plan tasks, switch between tasks, and that can lead to frustration and send your anxiety through the roof. Making it harder to focus, to complete assignments. It's compounding issue, right? And when we're talking about even difficulty with transitions and an unstructured environment, schools can be unpredictable. Your teachers change teachers leave, have families, all that kind of thing. Even activities and social situations, kids leave, kids arrive, adapting to change that's that cognitive flexibility. And if adapting to change is hard, that unpredictable environment, when nothing is constant except the rule that you can't play with sticks, your anxiety is gonna go through the absolute roof and then we've got the academic challenges. The academic demands are being at school planning, organization, time management. The executive functioning skills are all assumed that they're there and that we have them because they develop and they're inadvertently, they're not intentionally taught in schools. Executive functioning skills aren't intentionally taught anywhere because they develop over time and developmentally so we don't know there's a problem until there's a problem.

Leisa Reichelt:

So that might account for why it's not uncommon for a kid to hit year seven, year eight, and they hit their exec

Emma Brooksby :

functioning.

Leisa Reichelt:

because of all the additional demands for organization and change management,

Emma Brooksby :

But this is why In all those stages of schooling, when you look at prep to two, they say it's a big transition from year two to year three, because you go from having communal shared resources to having a locker tub or something like that, where those kids start to be responsible for their own belongings. Now, ADHDer over here, if I don't have my handbag in a set spot, I can't find it. So, it's gonna cause problems. Then when you go from year four to year five, that's often a bigger transition again. Your locker might be outside or, something like that. So there's more responsibility because it's age appropriate. They say, go for it. They give them more independence. They're the leaders of the school now. And then when you go to high school, well, that's a big transition. So we focus on the transitions. But we're not focusing on the fact that those skills, those underlying assumed skills, actually might not be there. I can talk better about ADHD because it's my experience. so for example, there's the 30% rule that we're basically 30% at any one time behind our peers over the course of our life. The 30% rule is basically that, a person with ADHD, will be 30% behind their same age peers. I don't wanna say across the board, but often in social skills, in things like executive functioning. And it will vary between person to persons as to which area.

Leisa Reichelt:

Alright, so just round that out with, we are saying that the exec function challenges that children experience when they're at school can lead to them having difficulty doing the basics that are being asked of them, which then can turn into, experiences of anxiety, distress, they're doing well at school, which then in turn can lead to not wanting to attend school, which sounds pretty sensible really, doesn't it?

Emma Brooksby :

Yeah. How much anxiety can one human being put up with in a day? Constantly trying to catch up. I can't find my pencil. I'm not sure where my book is. Oh God. I haven't started yet and everybody else seems to be doing something. Where are the instructions? Oh, right. I can get on with that. Oh wait, now we're packing up. Great. The anxiety sits right here.

Leisa Reichelt:

Let's pick out, a couple of specific examples

Emma Brooksby :

Sure.

Leisa Reichelt:

What you've seen as really some of the more common exec functioning challenges that kids have at school.

Emma Brooksby :

Yep,

Leisa Reichelt:

What would be some of the big ones for you? And let's talk about, how does that show up

Emma Brooksby :

yep.

Leisa Reichelt:

what are the things we can be doing to support.

Emma Brooksby :

All right, cool. So, I think the big ones are planning and organization. Task initiation is a big one. And time management would be, yeah. They, they would be the ones that are kind of, and emotional regulation. they would be the big ones that we see a lot of issues with. When they're not properly developed, it can be tricky for the human experiencing it. By planning, I'm basically talking about anticipating future events, setting goals and developing steps to carry out an activity.

Leisa Reichelt:

You give an example, perhaps of like what would that look like for somebody in year two? What would that look like for somebody in year eight?

Emma Brooksby :

So future events would be for, a little one would probably be what they're gonna do at recess, who they're gonna play with. You know, that feeling of, I can't ever find my friends if I don't plan to put my things away quickly enough, I won't get out on time to meet my people and then I can't find them. So that's that planning there but they don't think about where are we gonna meet and what are we gonna do it's okay, oh, I've gotta eat as fast as I can. Or, I won't eat my lunch because I wanna make sure I leave with my friends. And that's maybe why we end up with a full lunchbox or things half eaten yeah. In year eight it's about what homework do I have tonight? What books do I need to bring home and how am I gonna fit it in with any sport practice that I have, gaming with my friends, eating dinner. so that's kind of that planning of how that homework is gonna happen and whether it does or not. the impact of difficulty with planning leads to starting tasks at the last minute. Not thinking ahead about possible problems and not being able to break down tasks into smaller steps, which then extends onto that cognitive flexibility and, you know, of being able to adapt. And then that emotional regulation around it, you can see how they all just dovetail and link together and one compounds the other. So when you're talking about organization, that's about bringing order to any information that's presented. So if you are thinking in a classroom situation too, the more that's put up on a board or even electronically sifting through that stuff and working out what's important. A great example in prep to two is a worded problem. Accessing the reading in, in a maths worded problem. We're adding reading into mathematics and we should, of course, you know, that's real world problems and everything else, but what's the important part? What bit is the mathematics in this? And so that's organizing that stuff.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah. My son was in year seven and he had a locker, but he also had all the different classrooms and all the different

Emma Brooksby :

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt:

classrooms and all the different places to be. Just being able to work out what goes in the locker and what comes with me and how can I keep my locker in a state so that I can find things

Emma Brooksby :

yeah,

Leisa Reichelt:

sort of a timely way. He just ended up carrying everything in his bag everywhere

Emma Brooksby :

everywhere.

Leisa Reichelt:

was, just absolutely exhausted him.

Emma Brooksby :

And then you'll see the counterpart friend who has just one book and a pen, and that's what goes everywhere and nothing else. Calculator's gone. I was that one. I'm not sure where my pencil case is, but I've got a pen and a book that'll do. Uh, yeah, so obviously that's the organization bit that causes huge stress, particularly for somebody who's a perfectionist and needs to have all their ducks in a row. You can see in school that any level of organization beyond what you actually know how to do, forget about it.

Leisa Reichelt:

The experience that the kids are having, presumably is they're getting lost in all of the information that's coming at them. They're not being able to pull out the important things to focus on and what's being asked of them.

Emma Brooksby :

And that's just the academics of it.

Leisa Reichelt:

yeah,

Emma Brooksby :

I mean, what about all the lost jumpers? All the missed play times because you have to stay in the shade because you can't find your hat that has massive social implications and developing socially because they can't find their hats and they can't find their teacher to get the spare one in the classroom.

Leisa Reichelt:

Then they have to go home to mum without that jumper that she said, I'm not gonna buy you another jumper if you lose one more.

Emma Brooksby :

Oh, I can't tell her I've lost it, so I'll just be cold. It'll be fine. And then they can't concentrate'cause they're cold. I mean, yeah. Knock on effects. Anxiety.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm Okay. what's what's our next challenge?

Emma Brooksby :

Task initiation. Come on, get on with it. Okay. So task initiation is that bit of getting started. Whether it's something you really like or something you really don't like, it's that ability to get started. And it's not about motivation. I can be sitting on the couch knowing that I absolutely have to do the washing. If I don't do it, I've got no uniform for tomorrow. And my husband's stuff needs to be washed. And that's my, one of my one jobs in the whole house. That, that, that's it. Do the washing on a weekend. I know I have to do it and I'm hating myself for not doing it. I'm either stuck, I'm overwhelmed, I can't, but I want to, which is that whole School Can't experience. Now that's just one task. How many tasks actually occur in any given day in a school that you have to do, including eating lunch at certain times? Going outside, whatever the weather, you know, there are things that you have to do. And if task initiation is not your thing, that can be incredibly anxiety inducing. It can cause a great sense of failure. It has significant knock on effect. So we need to be able to start tasks in daily life or else we're not gonna get anywhere and we're gonna be relying on everybody else. So if we are just in life feeling overwhelmed, how many of us wanna start a new task when we're already feeling overwhelmed and exhausted? Or if we are stuck because we're not sure which way to go, we won't get started. If we have a fear of failure, perfectionism, if we're used to getting things wrong and we don't wanna be told once again that we're wrong again, there's a whole range of emotional, internal and external influences on the ability to get cracking and get on with something. But we say it like it's nothing. Come on, just make a start. Just get started. It doesn't matter. Just get started.

Leisa Reichelt:

That that is something that can often be externally described in really negative ways as well, right? Like that you're lazy or you're

Emma Brooksby :

Oh, yep, yep.

Leisa Reichelt:

care. Which is bring with them like layers of shame

Emma Brooksby :

Yeah. Lazy and selfish are words that I, I hate lazy and selfish as words. I really do because for most of my life, I've felt lazy and selfish. I know at times I've been called it, but I'm not lazy. I really wanna do the thing. I really, really do wanna do the thing. I need help to do the thing or at least get started.

Leisa Reichelt:

Alright, so we've got these challenges. you've given us this rich picture, I think, of how impactful they can be on the experience of trying to exist in a school environment. It gave me vivid flashbacks to recess in my youngest parts of of school. And trying not to get left behind

Emma Brooksby :

Yeah, me too.

Leisa Reichelt:

really took me back. What can we do to, know what the question is.

Emma Brooksby :

Minimize the impact.

Leisa Reichelt:

minimize the impact? That's what I'm looking

Emma Brooksby :

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt:

you.

Emma Brooksby :

I think initially we can give strategies but scaffolding is incredibly important. And not removing that scaffolding too quickly and saying, you know, good luck with that. I've shown you three times how to do that. Well, sorry, you might need it six times. What are you expecting? Is it age appropriate? Is it developmentally appropriate? And if we are going by age, have we applied that 30% rule and actually considered the human in front of us? So for a start, be careful with removing the scaffolding. Or letting the people that have the power at schools remove that scaffolding. You know, she's in grade six. She should be able to do that by now. Okay, cool. Can she though? School's job is to prepare our young people for life. That's part of their job, uh, the role of schools in our society. So when we're saying, well, they should be able to by now. Okay, thanks. They clearly can't. What are we gonna do? Like I said, removing that scaffolding too quickly is incredibly damaging. That scaffolding includes having, a bank of pencils that a person can grab if they can't find their own. That freedom of you can't find your book, that's okay. Here's a bit of loose leaf, let's glue it in when we find it. I'm talking about primary school setting at this point. In high school, particularly around organization, just having a book that you can just write whatever, you know, those, those backup plans that we as adults will often go, look, I'll just take a notebook with me in case. Teaching those adult strategies that we ourselves use for the just in case moments. That's that scaffolding that I'm talking about. And yes, we're still developing their organization and their planning skills because they're giving contingency plans. They're planning for when they forget to organize themselves with their materials, and then reminders, you know, I understand why kids can't have their phones at school. I get it. But it's a good reminding tool to have an alert and to help with that. It really is good for those types of things and we as adults use them. So, you know, I get why it's happened. There are so many benefits to those types of things that are real tools that can be used lifelong that we are not capitalizing on in the school environment. So when we're talking about reasonable adjustments, maybe that's one. If planning and organization is something that is regularly brought up by the school or the classroom teacher, or is causing the child serious anxiety, That's one of those reasonable adjustments, I think.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah, my son went to a school, briefly, unfortunately, that, was designed to support kids who are struggling in mainstream

Emma Brooksby :

Yep.

Leisa Reichelt:

and in that school that it was a high school like year nine and up, the kids went to the same room all the time and the teachers moved around and they had all of their books and they had all of the stationary and everything that they needed. And so all of that was just kind of completely taken away, gosh, what a weight off. Just not to have to think about that at all. yeah, just makes you wonder like, why are schools designed to run the kids around everywhere. Everyone's just running around madly it feels like.

Emma Brooksby :

i'm not a school designer. But you've gotta wonder, we have the technology, we have cloud bases and schools use them. Why are we still relying on books and paper and pencils that can be lost? I know we're worried about screen time and all that kind of stuff,

Leisa Reichelt:

So yeah, the thing I feel like I'm taking away on the planning is that almost less that have all of these techniques to plan better, it's it's almost more about how can we plan to support the kids when they will almost certainly have a failure in planning so that that doesn't become really negative in their experience of getting by at school. Is that a fair way of describing it?

Emma Brooksby :

yeah, I think so.

Leisa Reichelt:

Emma, why don't we talk about task initiation. What can we be doing to help to support them to initiate the tasks

Emma Brooksby :

Yep. So something that we've actually found really useful in our work is a task breakdown sheet, but, that's so 2022 because ChatGPT and Gemini and this wonderful tool called Goblin Tools that I've recently discovered, Goblin Tools Magic To Do, can help break down a task and divide it into smaller chunks that are more manageable. So, relying on AI to give that breakdown because, if I can, I would love to use, an example of engaging in a math lesson. And explain all the implications that can have for one human being. So if I'm gonna talk through four major areas, and that's planning and organization, task initiation, time management, and emotional regulation as it applies to engaging in a maths class. Now for those that are gonna watch it. The thing itself looks a little bit like that. And for those that can't, don't worry, I'm about to explain it. I put this into Magic To Do at Goblin Tools. It's free online. So is just a breakdown of engaging in a maths class. So for a start engaging in maths class, emotional regulation, do you even like maths? Because if you don't, you are instantly having an emotional regulation issue to accessing that learning, right? Straight up. But then Goblin Tools and Magic To Do tells me that the first thing is to participate actively in the classroom. And so I went, cool. Break that down for me. And it says, arrive prepared for the maths class with the necessary materials such as textbooks, notebooks, and writing tools. And I went, Hmm, great. Break that down for me. Because just in that instruction alone, planning and organization heavy and time management heavy right there. So then the first step of arriving prepared is to gather your textbooks and notebooks before heading to class. Again, planning and organization and time management. And that's again, if you even feel like going to maths because you like it, then. We're still battling that. And if anything goes wrong in that tiny stage of getting ready to go there, your emotional regulation is out the window. If you can't find your textbooks notebooks or calculator, you start to panic. I'm gonna get in trouble. Your anxiety's going through the roof. Then it tells me, I said, all right, gather your textbooks, notebooks. Break that down for me. And it said, well review your list of required materials. What do you need to take with you? That's time management planning and organization again, and we are not even at the maths class yet. We're still contemplating going. Then you've gotta locate your textbooks from your study area or storage, then you've gotta get your notebooks. Then you've gotta ensure you've got your writing implements. Then you've gotta collect it all together, verify that they're in good condition and complete then you've gotta transport it all. You've gotta get your butt over there with it in your hands. That's just step one. In order to participate actively in maths class according to Magic To Do, you have to listen attentively to teachers instructions and explanations. I've been a teacher, I've tried to be engaging most of my life, but I know I never had a hundred percent engagement all listening to my instructions. Sometimes they were garbage instructions. So, you know, we've got that issue. But then it also says that you've gotta maintain eye contact and show engagement through body language, such as sitting upright and facing the teacher Eye contact's often a problem, but that's emotional regulation because you have to contain yourself to be able to do that. Then as part of that, participating actively, it also says you gotta contribute to class discussions by sharing ideas and viewpoints. Now, I don't disagree with anything that's here about participating actively. I get that that's what it means. But when we look at what that requires, speaking about executive functioning, it is a massive load just to participate and that's not being engaged in a math class. There's another 10 instructions, like there's 10 in total, and you can break each one of those down into 10. And we're talking about a massive load that at any point if it falls down and you feel like you are not being successful in that class, your anxiety's gonna go through the roof because your emotional regulations out the window. You can't remember anything then from your working memory, and you can't access what you do know. So your planning for the things going wrong is out the window and then your inhibition control's gone and your cognitive flexibility, you're stuck. And then why aren't you doing anything?

Leisa Reichelt:

And it's worth kind of reflecting on the fact that there's gonna be a bunch of people in that classroom who don't have executive functioning issues, who are achieving all of this with relative ease. it's this sense of the heavy load is carried by those kids in the classroom who do have the executive functioning issues

Emma Brooksby :

because we're the ones that are singled out. Oh you've forgotten your stuff again. It's often not meant to be mean. It can sometimes just be misguided if they're given enough reminders.

Leisa Reichelt:

And, and then there's there's our whole cohort of people pleasers as well

Emma Brooksby :

yeah. And completely masking. So you can see how academic performance is influenced by something that we get through osmosis. Executive functioning skills are largely gathered through osmosis and natural development. And then trying and experimenting with these things as we develop. I know for my people we need to be taught how to function executively, And get that toolkit.

Leisa Reichelt:

Emma, when you're working with schools, what are the kinds of things that you are encouraging them to do to accommodate kids who have got executive functioning issues?

Emma Brooksby :

So flexibility to start with and developing teachers and schools to put the systems in place, that mean that everybody gets to succeed no matter what. So we are looking at understanding neurodivergence and how it can present so that executive function issues that, that ADHD kid that's coming in, they're late again and they don't have their stuff and they've walked in and they've cracked a joke'cause they think they're hilarious and they're trying to lighten the mood. They're not trying to push your buttons. They're trying to make it okay for them to be in the space when they know they've stuffed it up as an example. So about, their own cognitive flexibility and saying, okay, this is the human in front of me. I have a choice here. I'm the adult. I can be emotionally regulated and I can show grace and compassion and all those things that I wanna be shown, in this instance. So I think it's just that increasing the understanding of the complexity. ADHD in particular is not just about being naughty and noticing a squirrel, you know, the whole squirrel thing. There's so much to it the self-loathing that comes with it and, all those negative things consider that human. So that's the tools and strategies to support everybody and look away from the ideal. Every teacher will tell you, you can have your perfect class in your mind. You're never getting it in real life. We can't change the kids. So we need to change what we are doing to make it work for the people that I'm spending this hour with or this day with. That's the message I'm trying to hit up.

Leisa Reichelt:

Emma, if you've got a child who has executive dysfunction issues and they're just not cutting it in a mainstream school environment, are there some other alternative educational settings that you are aware of that you think might potentially be more suitable?

Emma Brooksby :

So there are a couple that some people really don't know about here at U I, I discovered Big Picture Education Australia, three years ago and we're now a member with them and home learners can participate in Big Picture education, particularly their year 11 and 12 with us. Big Picture is amazing in my opinion. And the research says it is too. It's designed to sit in mainstream schools and they are all over the country. Sometimes, standalone academies as well, right through to year 12. It's a proper alternative credential that is recognized at universities and TAFEs and no exams. It's personalized learning, individualized. There's one school here in Victoria. It's for year seven to 12 and it's wait list is as long as it's enrollment list. There are three in Tassie. There are several all around the country. The website has locations and whatnot, but incredibly flexible. The learning advisors are amazing people. And it's about learning through internships and leaving to learn. And so, you know, TAFE courses and it's not just work experience. They're rich experiences. And it's a small school model. So 16 people in one advisory, right the way through. So that depth of understanding each other as individuals really develops and the mentorship for the older ones as they're bringing through, but pursuing passions and creating a portfolio of evidence at the end. All these amazing things that you've done. If you don't know about Big Picture, have a look, they're great. But then there's Mastery Schools Australia as well. They're fairly new on the scene. We've got one here in Victoria now. We've got a couple of our clients go there, started this year. So, they beginning 2021 in Queensland. And they've got campuses, Queensland, Victoria, Tassie, and it's a middle school for years, four to 10. They aim to develop academic foundations and resilience, to reenter mainstream education Australia wide. It's evidence-based structured approaches. It's, it's working for some of our kids who School Can't is, is a thing, for them and it, and it's working for them. So that's, that's really nice to see. There's some special assistance schools through Independent Schools Australia. That are really working for our kids. Then it's Montessori and Steiner. We know about those, but, some of those have been great for our kids. Virtual school too. I know it doesn't work for everybody, but that's out there as well. I'm pulling from things that I know our clients have experienced success with, but I'm also an advocate for homeschooling and unschooling because burnout is real and sometimes a genuine break. I know that families struggle with that because it seems, their kids aren't doing anything, but even if they were going, what would they be getting out of it? For someone who, was in the system and does the work I do, I really do wanna say that. It's okay. For the unschooling and recognizing burnout. Acknowledging that in your young person can build them up in ways that you could not imagine. It's not to be discounted as a, I'm a lazy parent, or I'm doing wrong by my kid. I think you're doing the most noble thing that you can for your young people. If that's what they need.

Leisa Reichelt:

Well, certainly if they're in burnout, you often don't have much choice anyway,

Emma Brooksby :

No, you don't.

Leisa Reichelt:

So there is that. Fantastic. Emma, um, just to wrap us up, if there were some resources that you would love parents to know about with regards to exec function

Emma Brooksby :

All right. The Harvard University Center on the Developing Child has some great resources, and games and things to play. A whole lot of resources that are free, you just download them and find the appropriate age for your kids. This book, Learning to Plan and Be Organized, it's a useful little, executive function skills for kids with ADHD. And it is just, a book, by Kathleen Nadeau. I know there are a lot out there, but this is one that we use with our clients. Oh yeah, the goblin tools, the magic to do list to break everything down. ChatGPT will break down a task for you. That is, it's a life changer for me. Just saying. Now I tell everyone Cos its free!.

Leisa Reichelt:

Amazing. Well, Emma, it's been fantastic to spend some time with you digging into understanding exec function and the impact that, that challenges with exec function will contribute to the school experience for our kids. So thank you so much for spending the time with us. Much appreciated. Thank you. There is so much to talk about when it comes to executive function and school, but Emma does a wonderful job of really demonstrating how complex the demands of school are on executive function and the stress and anxiety that this can cause for our kids. I have put some of the links to the great resources Emma suggested in the episode notes, as well as links to find out more about School Can't Australia. If you have found this podcast helpful and I really hope that you have, please do take a moment to share, subscribe, maybe even give us a rating or review. It really does help us to get this podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and have not yet found the community and the information that we share. If you have some feedback for us or maybe you'd like to share your own School Can't lived experience, please drop us an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. If you are a parent or carer and you are feeling distressed. Remember, you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Thank you again for listening. We will talk again soon. Take care.