#20 - Lived Experience with Lisa McLean

In this episode, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by Lisa McLean as they discuss her daughter Mia's struggles with school attendance and anxiety. 

Lisa shares her family's journey from identifying early signs of anxiety in primary school, navigating high school challenges, understanding the mind-body connection, to ultimately finding alternative educational pathways. 

They discuss the stress and pressure felt by the entire family, the impact of trauma, and strategies such as homeschooling and mental health support and how Mia has emerged from the experience as an independent young person, optimistic for a rewarding future.

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:27 Introducing Lisa McLean and Her Family

01:41 Early Signs and Struggles in Primary School

03:42 Challenges in High School

04:53 Seeking Help and Initial Interventions

08:46 The Turning Point: Homeschooling and Alternative Education

16:08 The Impact of COVID-19 and Family Healing

23:19 Finding a New Path: TAFE and Independence

29:00 Reflections and Advice for Other Parents

33:11 Closing Remarks and Resources

Recommended Resources

• The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk (Book) - https://www.amazon.com.au/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748
• When the Body Says No by Gabor Mate (Book) - https://drgabormate.com/book/when-the-body-says-no/
• Lisa’s things she wished she knew (from one mum to another): https://stan.store/Calmlifeproject/p/what-i-wish-i-knew-from-one-mum-to-another
• Lisa’s instragram: https://www.instagram.com/calmlifeproject/
• Lisa’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/calmlifeproject

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today we are sharing another of our lived experience stories and we're joined by Lisa McLean. Lisa's daughter Mia struggled with school, especially throughout high school, but it took the whole family to learn and to heal in order to get to a positive outcome. We kicked off this interview by asking Lisa to give us a little bit of an introduction to herself and to her family.

Lisa McLean: 0:49

My name's Lisa. We have two children, and they are now young adults. Our son is 22 and our daughter is 19. We live on the Gold Coast at the moment. But we are from Sydney originally, so I suppose our School Can't experiences all happened in Sydney. I've been part of the School Can't community since 2019. We had a son who breezed fairly well through school and really enjoyed it and had that sort of school experience I suppose that we expect as parents. Our daughter was very different ever since they were babies they were very much chalk and cheese. Yeah. I suppose I realize that because everyone's different and every child is different, that you need to parent differently with each child. And I think that was a big realization for us that what worked for our son wasn't working for our daughter.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:38

That makes so much sense. Let's talk about your daughter then. Where does the story begin, do you think?

Lisa McLean: 1:44

So the School Can't was high school, but looking back, it did begin in primary school and it actually began probably Year One or Two. and it's really in hindsight, obviously, that we've realized the connection there. Just through the journey we are like, where did this start? Recently, I've had some long conversations with her now she's 19 and she said she struggled in primary school as well, but it wasn't clear to us what was going on for her.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:11

Lisa, if you look back in retrospect, what are the signs that you think you missed?

Lisa McLean: 2:15

This is something I love to share with other parents just because, you know, if only we knew I think it was year one or two, she had a lot of tummy pain. We went down the path of constipation, food. I've always been sort of a holistic health type person, so I've always seen naturopaths and delved into things relating to health. But we didn't know about anxiety. This was in 2014, 15. I didn't understand how anxiety can affect the body, particularly the gut and the gut brain connection. I soon learned, but back then, she just found school hard. She found friendships hard. She did okay and got to school most of the time and she did have friends, but we could see that she struggled a bit with keeping friendships. She was a pretty happy child. And I suppose our first thing around the gut was food. So we removed sugars and preservatives and we went down all that route, which we know can also help the brain, but it wasn't actually addressing what I believe now was anxiety around school friendships. She's quite a sensitive, I'd say she's really an empath, so she really was not coping, I think with school environment, the sounds, the expectations, all of those things in primary school.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:38

So she's managed to show up and do reasonably well until high school.

Lisa McLean: 3:42

I think this is the thing is obviously High school is a big change for all kids. It's a different school, a different day, with different teachers, maybe more kids. We were undecided what sort of school we should send her to, to very last minute. And she decided she wanted to go where her friend group was going. It was a local all girls school. Year seven started and she was put into a class without any of her primary school friends, which I think was one thing that we tended not push those sorts of things. It's like you'll cope. You gotta meet new people, you gotta adjust. By then she had anxiety and really wasn't finding it easy to settle into high school. That anxiety just developed and evolved over the year in year seven. and the friendships seemed to disappear, which was also, I suppose, you know, they hit high school and things change. They meet new people. So the friendship dissolved a bit and, that was hard. She was struggling to get to school. So we hit a point of I can't get to school, I can't get out of bed. I don't want to go. It just got worse as year seven went along. We hit halfway through the year and started to talk to the school. The school got involved. There was a year coordinator and there was one counselor, and they did have meetings with us and we did discuss how we could get her to school, how she could feel more comfortable in the school environment. We did try some of those things, it got to the point that I drove her to the school gate and she couldn't even get past the school gate.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:19

what were some of the strategies that you were trying to use at that stage?

Lisa McLean: 5:22

I think the thing is, that we have these expectations, of our children that they need to go to school. My husband works a full-time job in an office. I was working part-time in an office then, but I do work a lot from home, so I had a bit more flexibility, it became a case of trying to sort of calmly in the morning, get her going and, and then drive her to school we put a lot of pressure on, you know, this has to happen and, I don't know. We're not big consequence people but, it was sort of like you know, you need to go to school and that's that. And the thing is we felt very stressed by it, you know, as so many School Can't parents know. So there was a real buildup of stress around the whole family in trying to get her to school.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:11

So if you go back to those times in your mind, what was life like for the family when this was going on?

Lisa McLean: 6:17

I think, it really impacts everyone, doesn't it? So, we were both highly stressed over it and our son probably was ignored a bit. Because, we were focused on our daughter. And yeah, there was a lot of stress, and I think that's something I learned a lot about in this process. Just how stress can affect you and mean clarity in thoughts and looking at a bigger picture making some decisions was very hard. We just didn't know where to turn or what we should do next. So there was a lot of looking everywhere for answers, and who can help us? What else should we try? The school wasn't very helpful with that. And so it was really a case of actually we need to work this out ourselves. It did take a long time for us to figure out what to do. And that was really the beginning of her journey because we did pull her from school, we got through year seven. By the end of year seven though, we did have occasions. So by then, probably three quarters of the way through the year, we had her kicking and screaming on the bedroom floor, and me in tears not knowing what to do. Often my husband was at work or I would keep him at home because I didn't know, you know, what we should do. And I one day thought there's gotta be someone who can help me with this. We ended up being advised to call the Child Youth Mental Health Services, which happened to be just down the road from us. It was recommended that we go and talk to them. And then when it got to such sort of a dramatic, like, we can't get her out the door, I thought there's gotta be another answer. that was the beginning of us seeing a psychologist.

Leisa Reichelt: 7:57

and how well was she able to talk about what was going on for her?

Lisa McLean: 8:01

Not at all. Truthfully, we had two years with them, which was a long time for that mental health service. We were bumped up to sort of the trauma group when other things happen in year eight and year nine. But really, you know, I dragged her there too. I was like, this has gotta be helpful. You've gotta get there. So even that in itself, I feel really traumatized her a bit, me trying to drag her to a psychologist. We had family groups, one-on-one, just me and her with the psychologist, and then also the psychologist and her on her own. She's told me recently, she said, I just don't think it was helpful at all. We did some family therapy. Some of it was useful. I think it was useful for me to have someone to talk to at the time. We went down that route and she did get through year seven. We removed her and she did some work from home and we got through the year and then we got to the end of the year and we're discussing what to do next. Should she go to a different school? this is where, you know, it got interesting because, with this anxiety, because she wasn't happy at school, she started to look elsewhere for friends and also started to disappear and hang out with other people, not from the school. She now says to me, mum, it was just to make me feel better. Anything that removed her from, what she was having to deal with. So, year seven, summer school holidays, she ran around and hung out with kids. Unfortunately an incident happened to her during the school holidays and she was quite traumatized by it. That added to the anxiety she had. She said, I wanna try going back to the same school, and we decided to give it a go. We didn't realize how traumatized she was from this incident and this incident in a gang of girls, bullying, social media. I think she thought. Year seven isn't easy. It would probably get better. My friends are still there. Although those friends, she wasn't hanging out with a lot. And I think she just wasn't even sure where else she wanted to go. And we did open it up to her. We said, we are open to whatever you want, but she just did a refusal. No, I'll just stick with this.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:23

Yeah, I think that narrative too, that that idea that year seven is hard and everyone finds it hard in year seven and it'll be easier in year eight. I heard that a lot from my son as well. I think it's what you hear from teaching staff quite a bit, and I'm sure it's true for some kids.

Lisa McLean: 10:38

And us too. You know, we thought, give this a go. Not understanding that she couldn't engage with anything. Year eight didn't last long, at that school. I think about three months of which she hardly got there. I was like, this has to change. It was then that I started looking into alternatives and thought, maybe it's actually homeschooling. I saw a bit on School Can't obviously, so I I was like, what is this? And then I thought, I can't do this. This is another thing I thought, yes, I could be at home, but I was like, I'm not sure that I can actually do the whole homeschooling thing. What I did discover was the Australian Christian College, they had an online school, I think it was one of the first ones around,'cause this was pre COVID. We looked into that and we thought, okay, this could be an option. It means she can stay at home and she's not sort of trying to get to school. She can still be taught it's a curriculum we need to be around, but it's all given to her, without us having to do the homeschooling ourselves. So we signed up for them.

Leisa Reichelt: 11:45

Lisa, can I go back? Just to where you were saying you were thinking about home education, but you were saying you couldn't do it. Why were you telling yourself that you couldn't do it?

Lisa McLean: 11:54

I just think I knew nothing about it and I felt like there was a lot that I had to get my head around to teach her at home. Back now, I suppose the whole concept of even unschooling or really just doing life differently and not worrying almost about lessons and things, I probably would've been quite, that's literally what we did in the end, there's more information out there now that I would've understood it better.

Leisa Reichelt: 12:20

Yeah, there's a sense of kind of overwhelm isn't there, with so much to get your head around. It's, it's definitely a challenge. I guess you've kind of foreshadowed how it went with the virtual school.

Lisa McLean: 12:30

Yeah. So the thing with that was, realizing that now we know. She wasn't able to learn anything. It didn't matter where it was, whether it was at school, at home. And this is something I suppose to understand around any parents, if their child is not diagnosed with anything in particular or not just coping what's actually going on? And has there been trauma or is their nervous system like high stress? And of course anxiety is a form of high stress, but the brain turns off and they can't absorb anything. So there's no learning happening until you actually heal that. And this is what we learned over time. We didn't even know back then.

Leisa Reichelt: 13:13

So there's no accommodation that would've helped you needed to get her into a more calm, regulated state.

Lisa McLean: 13:20

What happened with her is when we go back to what stressed does to the body and the fight, flight, freeze. She went into flight. So suddenly home, she didn't feel happy at home. So she didn't feel happy at school. Suddenly she didn't feel happy at home. She was at home a lot and we were trying to get her to do work at home. So she disappeared. So we had her go into a mode of, yeah, you know, becoming almost a street child. She disappeared. And hung out with kids that weren't necessarily kids that helped She just wanted to escape what she was feeling. And She's talked to me about that recently. It was a case of I'm just gonna go and hang out which included drinking, which included smoking dope, which included getting on a train and disappearing overnight because it was an escapism and it was making her feel better, not being in reality and not having to deal with what was going on inside her. So that's what happened for her.

Leisa Reichelt: 14:29

So when you reflect on this, do you feel that by bringing schooling into the home, that kind of made home an unsafe place for her, is, is that what happened, do you think?

Lisa McLean: 14:40

In hindsight we are still trying to figure out, exactly why I, think it came down to the pressure we were putting on her, the expectations we had, but not understanding fully the mental health concerns or the anxiety, how it was affecting her. So two things we learned about parenting. My husband and I was one, I was like many mothers. I was a helper. So I was just always trying to help her feel better. And I was also doing things that almost just, you know, I would run around and try and find her and go and pick her up from here and there. And I was just helping, but actually not helping her because I wasn't understanding what was going on for her. I was just trying to fix things. My husband and I, there was also that sort of discipline. One of the parenting groups we went to was about drawing the line in the sand and discussing what we would or would not put up with. At the time, my husband and I were like, there's no line in the sand for our daughter. We can't make it anymore. We'd gone beyond that and that was a really hard thing to get our head around, like, well then what do we do? So we really had to delve into understanding it all better.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:01

so how did that happen? How did you get to that understanding? I guess you're still maybe on that journey in a way?

Lisa McLean: 16:06

Oh, what a journey, right? Interestingly enough, part of this story is COVID, can you believe we were locked down for almost two years it wasn't good for many people. It actually was amazing for us and only because she couldn't run anymore. She had to come home and we had to work through things together. That was quite useful. There was no school obviously with COVID, so that was almost for her relief. So it was like, actually there's no pressure to go to school'cause no one's going to school. So that was amazing and that's where actually there was a bit of pressure off us all, like, oh, we just have to be at home. you know, what I discovered in this process was a lot about nervous system regulation, about stress on the body. Not just for her, but for me and for my husband, for the family. COVID allowed us to de-stress, focus on ourselves, and heal a bit, which then helped us heal the connection with Mia. but it did take a while. The school journey did continue because we had the lockdown for a while and then it was like, okay, everyone's back to school. And we said to Mia, so, do you wanna go back to school? And she said, yes. But she said, I can't go back to the school we were at. And I say, okay, let's find a school. And there came the problem that she did not want to go to a all girls school. And there was a co-ed school not too far away, but it wasn't in our area. With the education department, that's not possible. So then we had the journey with the education department, working with them on saying, if you want Mia to go to school and she does wanna go to school, we need to find her a school. We went to the co-ed school. They did accept her. It wasn't too far from our home, and we thought this was a great new beginning. She seemed keen at the time, but didn't last long. And again, now I know, her nervous system wasn't healed. She still had trauma in her and unfortunately there was some kids there who did bully her. She even tells us now when she went to school. We thought she was at school. She came home, laid in her bed. She went into depressive states and, and this is the thing in between having her run away. We also had her at home in bed, in a dark room, not being able to move. So we went between those sorts of experiences for, for probably a year or more. So that was school two or school three. We were still, like, school needs to happen. And I think particularly because the education department says, well, you have to do something. So, there was that external pressure on us, which I know many parents are going through. You have to get to school. So we did try third or fourth school where she had to actually go to school. But that again, was talking to the education department saying, if you want her to go to school, you need to find a school for us, and it has to be out of our area. This was due to the bullies in our area. So this was me willing to drive further to take her to school and the school to take her on. And they did,

Leisa Reichelt: 19:24

And so the education department were reasonably cooperative with that because of the bullying aspect. Do you think?

Lisa McLean: 19:30

By then we had so many different psychologists, hospitals, doctors, mental health experts say we can't put her back into a school in this area. She has to go somewhere else. This school had to be willing to accept her and understand all her history. There was a lot of back and forth as we know for parents, it was just so much, to get my head around who we had to deal with, what we had to provide. I recently went through all my emails, the letters from this person and that person to try and get it all to happen. She did go this other school, and that was the school that in the end, again, she got too anxious at school. The anxiety, by now, if we look back started in year one and two, and although we did some things, we didn't fully understand the extent of it. We realized school is not for her. But that was a bit of a journey for us to realize that she just can't get to a school full stop I think there was a very low self-confidence in herself and who she was and this was growing up too, right? And I think that the traumatic experience she had just pushed it to the next level. And us not understanding enough early on didn't help the process. I was looking everywhere for help from anyone, and in the end it actually came down to I actually need to understand all of this better and need to help myself and my family to be able to help her. We were all so highly stressed by this stage that we were just feeding off each other and it's just really not healthy. Until we actually looked at our parenting, until we were able to step back and say, actually mental health is the priority, for both her and for the rest of the family. Then we actually managed to sort of heal ourselves without external help. But it was a journey and it wasn't overnight. It was a lot of learnings and a lot of changing how we lived our life and just doing things a bit differently.

Leisa Reichelt: 21:41

Yeah. That's a really interesting reflection though. I think a lot of the time your instinct is that you need to outsource this to a professional, right? Someone needs to come in and do the fixing and then we can all get back on track again. But I think what a lot of us experience is that we actually have to learn so much and we have to change ourselves so much and how we are in order to create a different kind of environment for our child, and you can't outsource that.

Lisa McLean: 22:09

Yeah. The reality is understanding ourselves better and why we behave certain ways or why we have certain expectations or why we hold stress the way we do, healing ourselves then allows us to be better parents. We needed to look inwards and really change things up for ourselves and really, you know, learn a bit about ourselves and, that allowed us then to be able to support her better. We do our best. And, you know, I say our daughter is definitely my biggest teacher in my life to date because, despite going through all of that, which I never wish on any child or parent. There's been a lot of growth and healing and a lot of understanding about ourselves through the process. So that's, that's the post-traumatic growth from the experience that we now have, which, you know, I feel very grateful that we can have that because she is healthy and well and coping now, which is amazing.

Leisa Reichelt: 23:09

Well, let's pick up the story again. We were at school number four or five, which she got into, but then that didn't work. What happened next?

Lisa McLean: 23:16

So by this time she was year nine. And that school, after working through why she couldn't stay in classrooms and learn, agreed to sign her out of school, into TAFE, into Certificate Two Vocational Pathways. It's a 10 week course at TAFE. At the time there was only two or three places in Sydney that offered it. And they took intakes twice a year. And they only took maybe 10 or 12 children. We went for an interview with them. A couple of amazing ladies ran it. And, I was in tears at the meeting because I thought finally someone understands what's been going on for her. They took her in this was it was around just the end of COVID period. So she wasn't yet 16, she was still 15 and she went there every day. Not a problem for 10 weeks and did whatever work she needed to do. She said, mom, it wasn't that complicated. It wasn't hard. She's a fairly intelligent girl, you know, she just couldn't do school. So she was able to get through that. Not a problem. And she has said to me, she just felt so happy that she never had to go to school again. she was still struggling for mental health. There was still depressive episodes. We were still learning about how to help her heal, soon after she finished that we were in lockdown again. That TAFE was linked to Bradfield College in Sydney where you can go and do year 11, 12. I've got a friend whose daughter's there who said it's been amazing for her daughter. We had thought about those pathways, but COVID got in the way. Suddenly there was nothing going on. We had to wait. In that process of waiting, she went and got a job. It was amazing. We actually, it was an interesting journey because she still was struggling, a lot. She didn't really want to live with us and we were working through that. And she had an opportunity to live, near her grandparents, in an apartment. So we said to her, why don't we trial? Living on your own, getting a job and supporting yourself because if you can't support yourself, then you need to come back home. Now, this is not ideal, you know, it was a huge thing for us to even agree to that at such a young age. It's not what we thought her life would look like. But it was an acceptance of this is her journey, her mental health is priority. Let's just with it and see, see what happens. Who was her boss, who became like a mentor for her. She made her money, she supported herself. She started going to the gym and this was a huge turnaround I think, for her. I suppose that's connecting trauma and stress in the body. If teens can't talk, then it's also understanding that there's things they can do, with a body that can release trauma, and that can be movement, that can be meditation, mindfulness, it can be breath work, it can be somatic work. There's a lot of stuff they can do. They have to be willing to do it. And that's the toughest thing as we know teenagers. But she decided she wanted to go to the gym and almost came quite obsessed with the gym, but it actually was so helpful for her mental health. So she lives on her own, supports herself doing amazing. And she's 19 now, and she's just started a course at TAFE To be a social worker. Which we just think is amazing because for her now, she's sort of healing and working. She's been seeing a holistic counselor. She understands now about journaling and meditation and all those things that can help. She now wants to do social work so she can help other young people who went through what she did. Its early days. And truthfully, because she didn't have much schooling at all. It's not been easy. It's all online. But just trying to get her head around some of those things that we learn at school around, writing essays She used to be a great writer when she was younger, and so it is just taking time. But she's excited to be learning again. It's a real example that we just have to lean into what's gonna work for our child and that there is so many pathways, you know, school, going to school isn't the end all, and they'll be ready to learn when they're ready, if they want to. And we know that, you can go out into the world do, things that you're passionate about and be successful in whatever you want. And you don't actually have to to school. So.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:06

All of that lived experience that she has can hopefully be transformed into something that's really valuable for so many other people as well.

Lisa McLean: 28:13

I hope so. And again, it's still a journey, right? Both our children are grown up, but we are still, you know, I want to share my story

Leisa Reichelt: 28:19

Yeah.

Lisa McLean: 28:20

other parents understand that they're not alone and that a child's School Can't journey can be very different for every child. They can get through there. And remember always thinking, I just can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Like I just don't know where this is heading. And particularly when she was on the streets when she was struggling so much when we ended up in hospitals I was like, what? I was worrying so much about the future. And again, that bring coming back to the present and going, actually we just need to focus on the present and what's going on for her mental health and healing that. And with that, then the path will unfold.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:56

that's a very good transition, to our closing questions. So Lisa, if you could go back in time and tell yourself something, what do you think you'd say?

Lisa McLean: 29:08

What would it be? So many lessons. I wish I knew more about how stress and anxiety affects the body. What would I say back then is, I suppose, you know, it will be okay. It's like, you're so caught up in helping and fixing. Actually, it's really important to step back and just be with whatever's going on. A concept that I learned from a friend that I then really delved into was holding the space for her. And for us to say, we need to stop the pressure, stop the expectations, stop the judgment. She needs to feel safety in the body. And that it's okay that school wasn't her path. And not worry about the judgements and the expectations of everyone else. Yeah, there's a lot really isn't there?

Leisa Reichelt: 30:05

That's lovely.

Lisa McLean: 30:06

So,

Leisa Reichelt: 30:07

Is there anything that you haven't said that you would really like people to know? People who are on their own School Can't journey right now. What would you really like them to know?

Lisa McLean: 30:15

I have said this a few times. I think really that in the end, our mental health is priority that just focus on, on mental health

Leisa Reichelt: 30:26

and then finally, of all of the different resources that you have access throughout

Lisa McLean: 30:32

Mm

Leisa Reichelt: 30:32

pathway in supporting your daughter and understanding what she's going through, is there something that stands out that you would wanna recommend to people to use as a resource to learn from?

Lisa McLean: 30:42

Yeah. I suppose one thing I did wanna share was particularly when it comes to teenagers, disengaged, fighting, battling, withdrawing. Something is going on and it's really understanding to not take on what's maybe coming back at you in regards to behavior and get to the bottom of what's going on. Understanding trauma stress and nervous system regulation is super important. I got hold of the book, the Body Keeps the Score early on, by Bessel Van Der Kolk, and that was an eye-opener. That was like, wow, okay. I can see in my daughter what he was talking about. And Gabor Mate quite well known in the health of wellness industry and now, you know, can find him everywhere online, what he talks about. I really do believe that, you know, mind body connection, what's going on in the body. So understanding, how trauma affects the body, and what's maybe going on around anxiety for your child and there's different types of anxiety they could be experiencing. I think you need to work out what tools and techniques, and my daughter said they didn't teach me how to help myself. If we as parents understand and help ourselves when we're stressed and overwhelmed'cause of what we are going through, those things that we learn to, to calm our system, calm our body, we need to teach our children. And I think that's really important. Then just thinking a psychologist, in particular is gonna help. Our daughter eventually had a social worker. And that was actually in the end quite helpful. It was when she was sort of coming out closer to 16, but a social worker who actually took her out for a walk, had coffee with her because sitting in a room, and talking wasn't working. So, it is just looking for those different, therapists that can support you, but also learning, the tools and techniques yourself

Leisa Reichelt: 32:50

Excellent. Wonderful advice. Lisa, thank you so much for sharing your journey, your story, all the things you've learned so that others of us can benefit from it. I really appreciate it.

Lisa McLean: 33:04

it's been lovely talking to you and I really do hope it's other school camp community and the wider community

Leisa Reichelt: 33:11

whenever I have the privilege of hearing another family's School Can't experience, I'm always struck by the way there are many familiar themes, but every story is so unique and we all have to find our own way through it. Hopefully there's something in Lisa's story that's helpful for you right now. I put the links to the Body Keeps the Score book that Lisa recommended, as well as some resources that she's very kindly shared on her own website that she hopes will be helpful for parents experiencing School Can't. I've also put links to the School Can't Australia website and information about the parent support peer group there as well. If you have found this podcast helpful, please do take a moment to share, to subscribe, maybe even give us a rating or review. It really does make a huge difference in helping us get the podcast in the hands of people who are experiencing School Can't and haven't found the community and all the information we share just yet. If you have some feedback for us or perhaps you'd like to share your own School Can't lived experience, which we would love, please drop us an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Thank you again for listening, and we will talk again soon. Take care.