#26 - Kate & Daniel's Lived Experience

In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by South Australian parents Kate and Daniel, who discuss their experiences caring for three neurodivergent children, two of whom they are currently home educating. 

They share their challenges with the traditional school system, the transition to home education, the realities of day to day life and low demand parenting, and strategies they use to support their children's learning and wellbeing. 

Kate and Daniel share candidly the complexities of home educating neurodiverse young people who have experienced school trauma, whilst balancing the challenges of societal expectations, and the importance of leaning on community support. 

00:00 Introduction to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:19 Meet Kate and Daniel: South Australian Parents

02:13 Early Signs and Diagnosis

03:42 The Struggles of Traditional Schooling

05:27 Transition to Home Education

08:58 Daily Life and Challenges of Home Education

19:44 The Emotional and Social Impact on Parents

26:19 Reflections and Advice for Other Parents

30:38 Conclusion and Resources

Recommended Resources

• Home Education Network website: https://home-ed.vic.edu.au/
• Home Educaton Network on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HomeEducationNetwork

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today we have our first ever School Can't Experience parental double act with Kate and Daniel, who are South Australian parents of three neurodiverse children, two of whom they're currently home educating. While both Kate and Daniel are full-time carers. They're supporting the family back to wellness, engagement, and learning. I hope you enjoy their story. Alright. Well welcome Daniel and Kate to our podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.

Daniel & Kate: 0:54

Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you.

Leisa Reichelt: 0:56

Absolute pleasure. Just to get us started, maybe you can give us just a little bit of, uh, background into like you and your family. Who's who, where are you? What's what, what's going on in life?

Daniel & Kate: 1:08

So yeah, there's five of us. I'm late diagnosed autistic woman. Also I think probably PDA or ADHD. And we've got three neurodivergent children. So, Autistic PDAs, uh, probably some ADHD thrown in there too. The ages are 18, 14 and 11. Youngest two are doing home education after various periods of School Can't. Yeah, we've got a dog, crazy dog and a cat and yeah, we live in South Australia.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:42

And you are both kinda stay at home carers right now.

Daniel & Kate: 1:46

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:47

What were you in previous lives?

Daniel & Kate: 1:49

Yeah. So I was working full time up until 2023. I was managing a virtual reality arcade. Prior to that I was a geologist. Bit of work and doing a PhD in that. Prior to kids, I was a social worker, when my eldest was young, um, and then kind of outta the workforce, having babies, raising babies.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:11

If you look back. Through your kids' lives and you think with the power of hindsight, what were the earliest signs of maybe what was to come? What do you go back to?

Daniel & Kate: 2:21

Well, the one that is probably not the earliest one, but the one that jumps out to me is just one day in year one or reception, the teacher just sort of pulling us aside and saying, oh, maybe look at an educational assessment for them. I mean, there would've been meltdowns in supermarkets and all kinds of things before that. But that was the moment where we began the actual journey towards diagnosis and then making sense of everything that came before it.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:52

Hmm.

Daniel & Kate: 2:53

For me it was a lot earlier. Probably a middle one was always quirky and creative and expressive. And I remember not ever thinking about the autism stuff because I wasn't very informed about being autistic or autism or anything neurodivergent back then., But I just always thought, oh, they're really quirky and, um, creative and, you know, wouldn't answer to their name if they were playing being horse or something you know, And with our youngest, it was. He was always just very, very sensitive, very expressive, very creative, and lots of, um, separation anxiety too, which now I go, well, all of that makes so much sense, but you know, you only know what you know

Leisa Reichelt: 3:40

Learn a lot on the way through, don't you?

Daniel & Kate: 3:41

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:42

Let's hear a little bit about what school can't look like for your family.

Daniel & Kate: 3:45

Probably towards the end of 2023, our middle child really struggled with school. leading into 2024. It became a case of what can we do?'cause we can't do school anymore, I really felt like school was breaking both of them. So it became, the schools, didn't know what to do in the end really either. They weren't coming up with any options that were safe. We really felt pushed into a corner where we had to take the kids out for their own wellbeing. Their demeanor and outlook just got so internalized and quiet They got very quiet and it became a place of nothing good can come from this because they're retreating more and more we need to protect them and care for them. We didn't have anyone supporting us going, yeah, this is something that happens. It honestly felt like we were just trying to fight our own path and also trying to, you know, be a family in a world that doesn't understand, you know, we're still coming to terms with who's neurodivergent, who's autistic, who's PDA, who's really struggling at the moment. And it seemed like we all were, so, just so messy. Yeah. So I felt like, getting them to school was just this battle that became intense and traumatic. I just thought no, we have to stop this.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:26

Mm-hmm.

Daniel & Kate: 5:27

so then it became like I did one of the Home Education Network, seminars about Home Ed. That kind of opened my eyes going, oh God, there's people who are going through similar things who understand how intense this is. That was a real eyeopener to go what you think home education is, which, I guess it's quite a mainstream view and prejudiced against this is like, oh, it's a bit of a cult thing and we just wanted to be normal. We wanted kids to go to school us to be able to work, everyone to have their semblance of independence or growing whatever that looks like in a mainstream way. And we can't do that right now. That's not how our life is. There was a lot of readjustments in our thinking, which we still struggling to do a lot of the time. I mean, you know, what's normal in our world is very, you're kind of brainwashed into thinking what normality is and, our family doesn't subscribe to that, I guess too, in lots of ways. So, yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:33

It is challenging though, isn't it? Because even when you know this in your head from, learning and recognizing it. Still in everyday life that intense socialization that you've had and the world that you live in makes it hard, I think, every day to feel a hundred percent comfortable and confident in the different lifestyle.

Daniel & Kate: 6:56

Yeah, definitely.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:58

Mm-hmm.

Daniel & Kate: 6:59

it's very messy and continues to be very messy like you're talking about the reviewer from the Home Ed review we had, which was a month, six weeks ago. I actually wrote her an email afterwards because she was so lovely and I'd heard, you know, really inconsistent feedback of other people's experiences, and we got, we just got really lucky. So I wrote her an email, you know, a couple weeks after and just said you are the first person in the education system I just said to her in this email that, you're the first person who I've felt believed by, which seems ridiculous because, you know, we've been in the education system with our kids since 2010? so that's a long time and I felt she was the first person at least in the last couple years, that believed us and gave us time to talk about all our challenges and all the context of our life. So, Most of my report most of my report was context of, everyone's, different capacities, the burnout, the trauma from school. People believe what's happening, but maybe they also believe that there's other solutions and that with different actions it can be resolved. So they're not denying that it's happening to us and to the children, But. Is that because you're not doing it this way or that way? Yeah. You don't fully grasp how all-encompassing, the situation is. There was a lot of gaslighting, like, well, if you just tried this, and the assumption is that they can still get there if you just tried different options or if you came up with magical new options or if you pushed them harder or something.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:56

Yeah, if you were stricter.

Daniel & Kate: 8:57

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:58

Yeah. I'd really love to hear about this first year of home education. I'm slightly self invested because I am in my first six months of it. Something that you said earlier, Daniel, about, you know, just that stress of homeschooling. I think on the podcast we've heard a lot of people were like, oh, you know, and then we switched to homeschooling and then everything, oh, I can just relax and everything was fine.

Daniel & Kate: 9:20

Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 9:20

I like the fact that I don't have to stress every morning and every night about getting my kid to school, but now I stress pretty much 24 7. Like there's, it is not an out of school time when I can stop stressing. Now I'm stressing all the time

Daniel & Kate: 9:35

yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 9:35

that I'm not doing enough or not doing the right things that we should be doing more or better or different and I am a little bit scared about what's gonna happen. I've got somebody coming back, in a few months to have a look at everything that we've achieved. I'm just like, I don't think it's what she's gonna be expecting based on, you know, when she came to see us the first time around.

Daniel & Kate: 9:54

yeah, it comes back to that idea of achievement you mentioned? at the start, we were expecting everything to be based on traditional kind of education, which is how, you know, what, how much have they read, what can they add up now, all that kind of stuff. And personally, I was sort of expecting that's what we would have to do too. I guess for, for me, it's been just a, you have to at first acknowledge what's the capacity and what's the capability? And once you realize that, okay, well that's what you're working with, then you start thinking about, well, what can we actually do? And what is learning gonna look like within that capacity? so for us it's been just be available, try and, let people follow interests, foster inquisitiveness and keep people feeling regulated and safe, I guess. Yeah. It was a thing of a period which is kind of ongoing for us, which is just that deschooling or unschooling. It was just like, we can't have any expectations on them and we still can't. everything is pretty much, we have suggestions occasionally, but you know, there's PDA involved too. Demands, questions or suggestions often don't work. Yeah, you needed that period of decompression as well, which I feel like is just our life in general. We have to do that a lot of the time anyway. So yeah, when we finally decided we can't do school anymore, we are going to do Home Ed, it was a huge, huge relief both for us, but I think also for the kids as well I just thought now we need to not have expectations on them. They need to recover in some sense'cause they're all burnt out and we are burnt out. In combination with your PDA profile, we have to be very, low demand and creative with what we use as evidence of learning for the system. it's our job to kind of, you know, notice things, put ideas away, you know, write things down so we can support our kids to be regulated and recover. Our job as the parents is to jump through all the hurdles systemically. so they can just be ticked off as they're at home. They're home educating, they don't have to jump through the hoops themselves. yeah, I think we've just had to pare everything back and go, these young people are our priority and the system isn't, we have to negotiate with the system. but what's important is their wellbeing. It's unpredictable and messy all the time. but that's just our life. I think it'll be a constant ongoing thing. It's just up and down constantly.

Leisa Reichelt: 13:00

Well, I find that reassuring. we certainly have got good weeks and bad weeks here. You have a good week and you're like, maybe it's starting to work and everything's gonna be amazing. And then you had the next week as a complete reality check, and you're like, no, it's just, it's a bit of a cycle.

Daniel & Kate: 13:14

And for us, I think It's like a moment to moment, day to day, morning afternoon,, Like my expectations or what I notice is you can just have three good moments in a morning. And you just got to, be aware of those and notice them And then the afternoon or the evening might be a total write off

Leisa Reichelt: 13:36

Yeah.

Daniel & Kate: 13:36

just to note the good moments both for yourself and for your child, but also, if there's something you can tick off in the home ed to go, oh, they'll learn about that, or they engaged with that. Just having low expectations really, and then yeah. Mm-hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 13:51

Hmm.

Daniel & Kate: 13:51

we talk about like, ticking things off, I mean, I, I agree and, but I guess our goal is still for our kids to learn and, and be educated. It's just we are still trying to work out how that is for them, what does work for them and how they do learn and get them to a point where they can. so yeah, we're not snubbing our nose at, oh, our kids don't need to be educated in a traditional way. We're just trying to find out. since that doesn't work what, what can we do? What, what might work? We're testing all of those avenues We've tried to be specific, we tried a road trip to Melbourne and there were learning things on that, but it was also really challenging. it was really hard. And so a lot of big meltdowns and really challenging moments. We did it and it was a learning experience. But would we do it again the same way? Probably not.

Leisa Reichelt: 14:46

If there's such a thing, what does a typical day look like for you?

Daniel & Kate: 14:50

It almost feels embarrassing to answer that question, because at the moment, it's getting out of bed late. there's a lot of screens We try to get people to engage with an activity. So we try and say, should we go for a walk Shall we maybe go see a movie? Or should we do a Lego set? We're just really trying to engage with people, around their interests, but also, like health stuff So we try to go, we've got a dog, so we need to take the dog, for a walk every day. The movies have worked a couple times in the last month, which is great. to even get out of the house is brilliant because there's still a huge amount of anxiety around leaving and just not engage with the idea of leaving the house even going in the backyard or, going down the street. That's really, really hard.

Leisa Reichelt: 15:41

Yeah.

Daniel & Kate: 15:42

I think even just saying it out loud, it's still really confronting to say it. Yeah. And, that whole concept of what is learning and luckily our Home Education reviewer understood this, but for example, for our youngest, they play a lot of games and they are learning when they're playing those. There's user interfaces and computer skills that they're learning. And that's really important to today's world. At one point he got interested in a game called Supermarket Simulator. Driven by himself, he opened up this game, started playing it, and he was, you know, in a virtual world selling customers items, reordering stock. Counting up the money that he'd need giving the correct change. This is an engagement with maths that was totally self-driven by him. And he would not have done that school, he would not have showed any interest. So, certainly we couldn't have tried to teach him that too. He needs, autonomy and it needs to be interest led. These things are spontaneous and unpredictable really, aren't they? Yeah. And sort of parking your expectation for a while and going, okay, trusting that learning will happen if we are ready to engage and give opportunity. Our our middle child loves drawing. They do so much drawing, hours and hours of drawing a day. So we, we enable that. We, encourage that. We let them go. And again, you know, even just by drawing, you're downloading programs, you're learning new interfaces of programs. But the flip side of that is when someone says, so what are they learning at home? Or what are they doing for maths? you've gotta find examples like supermarket simulator, that's their math. And I still struggle just with that. Um, self-driven as well, that self critique of what we are doing. Yeah. But I think ultimately, we don't have a choice at the moment. We've gotta keep people regulated, like Kate said, that's the number one safe, happy regulated to make them, to have them in a spot where they can learn and then provide opportunities. That's the best we can do at the moment.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:44

Yeah. I know you said it's kind of embarrassing to share, but what you are describing is so similar to what I'm experiencing here in our home as well, and I'm sure there are so many other people who are listening to this who are also experiencing similar things. I really appreciate you sharing it because it does feel very shameful and it is very difficult to answer questions around it.

Daniel & Kate: 18:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And even though I know that's what our audience is, and they can understand that when someone says, what does the typical day of schooling look for you? Like, it's sort of like freeze up. Like, oh, I don't know. Yeah. more like what is a typical day of survival and, and everyone getting on look like Is really what's happening. also, from the beginning, I remember saying this to one of our psychologists, the priority is connection and safety And I know that's a common thing with lots of people in the School Can't group. Everything has been traumatized back to those two points. and unless, people have been through it, I think it's really hard to understand how basic it has to get back down to Like is often said in the Home Ed Network, and in the School Can't group, just'cause people high school in year 12 or some people do, doesn't mean your learning stopped. Humans are dynamic and you learn constantly all the time. It's a very capitalist idea and concept that going to school, basically nine to five or nine to three, five days a week. And yeah, that would be great if our family could fit that But they are curious, creative people and it's easier to buy into the fear of are we gonna do if they're not at school anymore. That is, of course a fear that I have. But I know that they're creative and curious and, they're natural learners, humans are natural learners.

Leisa Reichelt: 19:44

Let's talk a little bit about, you know, you said before Kate and Daniel as well, right? That, you know, we used to be a mainstream family and now we're very much not a mainstream family. And just that whole transition of parents with jobs and kids who went to school to becoming carers and doing the home education. I think Daniel, you talked about how that has maybe amplified for men, maybe more so than women. Although as a woman, I've gotta say, it hasn't been a fun journey for me necessarily either.

Daniel & Kate: 20:14

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 20:14

can we talk about that a little bit?

Daniel & Kate: 20:16

Firstly, I think, in this space, women take on a lot more responsibility Whenever we engage with the community, it's almost entirely women. So when we were trying to get the kids to school, Kate actually started up a parents committee, liaising with the school and that was great. But it was always the mums that were there. So when I mentioned, I think it's, difficult for men in the context of, the social expectations of men to even more so be, be working and, the social roles of men and women and stuff. I guess for men to help the family, and I know everyone's case is different, but, for some people it probably is just to continue working For me it was, the decision to recognize that if I keep trying to look for work and Kate's here their own with all the, the kids all the time, that's, we we're gonna end up somewhere we don't want to end up, really falling apart. So I had to go, okay, what's the most important thing at the moment? Well, it's to be at home and to be a carer and to be trying this. And that I think for men is pretty challenging. The idea of, know, I'm gonna be like a home dad kind of thing. Whether you are judged or not. Every time you describe that you're a carer and that you're not working and, and the kids don't get to school, you always feel judged, even, whether you are being judged or not at that time. You feel it. Well, I do anyway. Yeah. And I think lots of people our age and in our circumstances, you know, I've got, I had elderly parents. I've got your elderly parents as well. So there's an element of when everything was amping up with the School Can't, my mum and dad were both incredibly unwell, so I was at the hospital nearly every day. You had to kind of step up because there was so much caring and supporting of people to be done that I couldn't physically be at the hospital looking after my parents, but also be at home. So, yeah, it was, really intense And distressing, but it all kind of happened at the same time. Like you'd probably stopped working just before my mum and dad got really sick. And that kind of forced it probably too, in a way the not looking for another job straight away and then going, is there like carer payments we can try and access And this must be really tricky for some people. I know what it was like when I working from home as much as I could and you get some blow back from your bosses on that. And so you're just trying to balance everything. But that balance all fell over and I didn't have that job anymore. Yeah. But if I'd been able to keep that, maybe I could have stumbled through it, it probably wouldn't have been a good thing. So in some ways we were probably, not fortunate'cause it was a horrible time. it, like Kate said, it kind of. everything to head at one time. We can't, we actually can't do this, so what's the alternative it's also, you know, it is not just the kids who are dysregulated and in huge distress, it's the parents as well. Every time I had to try and, you know, say, well, what's happening today? Are we going to school? And driving them to school? I'd be in tears breaking down and so distressed plus, all the other stuff with my parents happening at the same time. So it was like, this is gonna all end really badly if we keep trying to push this in so many different directions. It had to come back down to survival and what are the priorities. Once we made those decisions and simplified things for us, that there was another part which came in, which was like when suddenly I had a day where wasn't quite as stressful and things were actually working a bit better. There was this voice in the back of my head saying, well, you should be doing something else then, because this is, it's not that

Leisa Reichelt: 24:26

Yes.

Daniel & Kate: 24:27

This is going a bit easier. there was this survivor guilt I remember in a psychology session talking about this and thinking, just because things, if things are getting better, not that they necessarily are, but if things do get better, that's good. Enjoy that

Leisa Reichelt: 24:45

Hmm. Hmm.

Daniel & Kate: 24:45

you know those decisions you've made, if they make things better we don't have to complicate it and then go, well, okay, it's settled now, so let's go back into the fray and mess things up again. That idea that, you can move forward and it can get better and you shouldn't feel guilty if it does start to get better in certain ways. Not that everything's fixed, but. the changes can make things better. or more manageable. And that seems like the very mainstream way of how our world works, that, things seem a little bit better now, so you can the mainstream stuff again.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:19

I, I really relate to that, that, as soon as you start to see signs that things are starting to lighten, you're like, okay, well this means then that we should be capable of doing more. And whether that's more school or whether that's, well, maybe I should pick up some work, or, wherever the case is. you are always, feels like you're operating from a place of lack or

Daniel & Kate: 25:37

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt: 25:38

doing enough, or you're just always feeling like you're letting someone or something down. And I think at this age too, it's difficult career wise, isn't it? Because like, you know, stepping out now is a pretty scary thing to do, and then we know how many opportunities can you not take to step back in

Daniel & Kate: 25:55

yeah. I know. It's really scary if you think about it too much.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:58

Yeah.

Daniel & Kate: 25:59

I remember, having kind of conversations with our psychologist I remember her saying, don't think about the future. Just think about right now Because the future in lots of ways is really scary You can go down that fear path of, what if this happens and then this happens, and doesn't really help you in the moment either, so,

Leisa Reichelt: 26:19

Let's move on to those closing questions shall we? if you could go back in time and tell yourself something, when would you go back to and what do you think you'd say?

Daniel & Kate: 26:30

Yeah. whatever decisions you feel are best for your family, give yourself the freedom to make them even if they go against sort of perceived expectations of what society expects. You're in the best position to decide that. I think a lot of society expectations hold people back from decisions like that. Whatever those opportunities are for you, allow yourself, the power to make the decisions that you think are best, Yeah, and I think, just that idea of, you know your kids better than anyone, and other people can have advice or think they know what's best sometimes their advice is a good thing or that kind of support is useful. but I guess for me personally, it's been a really slow pathway to feeling that I can find and use my voice to advocate and support my kids.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:33

Mm-hmm.

Daniel & Kate: 27:34

there was the thing, I'm not good at public speaking. I'm not, comfortable talking to authority figures, it got to the point where it almost became irrelevant other people's opinions how I would be perceived because something that's so much more important than that But I think the experience of the last few years have drawn that out So, me five years ago was a different person to who I'm now. I just feel for everyone going through it because it's really, really hard. There's no quick, easy way out of it It's just getting by and living through it and knowing you're doing the right things, with what you have at the time

Leisa Reichelt: 28:24

What would be the one thing that you would love everybody who's listening, who's on their own School, Can't journey to know? If you could tell them something, what would you wanna tell them?

Daniel & Kate: 28:33

I would say I believe you. You're not broken, and your children aren't broken. a lot of our children are neurodivergent and the system doesn't know how to engage with us and our families. Even though systems and people in those systems make you feel that you're crazy or too sensitive or too soft on your kids none of that is true. I know how hard the systems are to navigate as adults, let alone if you're a child who has huge challenges in communication or even identifying things It's hard I'm a grown adult and I struggle all the time with it.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:21

Final question, a resource that's been very helpful for you, that you'd like to recommend to people.

Daniel & Kate: 29:27

The School Can't group, was instrumental, for being heard and understood. and just the support even though there's all these just people on the internet who I don't know, who understood and continue to navigate their own story, which is just like ours. And then once we decided to do Home Ed, it was the Home Ed Network. and the, the different, Facebook groups, like the neurodivergent one is massive, for just, understanding, both getting insights from people, but also just feeling understood in that space. So the online groups have been huge for, ideas information and just feeling heard and not alone

Leisa Reichelt: 30:20

They are an amazing support.

Daniel & Kate: 30:22

Mm.

Leisa Reichelt: 30:23

Thank you both Kate and Daniel for your time and sharing your experience. I really appreciate it. I'm sure it'll resonate with plenty of people who are listening.

Daniel & Kate: 30:30

Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity to say a bit about us, and thanks for, giving us the time and doing your work too.

Leisa Reichelt: 30:38

Well, many thanks again to Kate and Daniel for sharing your story. I'm sure there are many of us who can relate to your experiences. I've put links to the Home Education Network in the episode notes, and I would echo Kate's endorsement of the Introduction to Home Education webinars that HEN run on a regular basis. If you have found this podcast helpful, please do take a moment to subscribe. Maybe even give us a rating or a review. It makes a huge difference in helping us get the podcast into the hands of more people who have School Can't kids, but who haven't found our community and the information that we share. If you would like to share your own lived experience with the community, we would love that. Please drop us an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. It is such a relaxed process. Anyone could do it. I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Thank you again for listening. We will talk again soon. Take care.