#28 - Dr Naomi Fisher on Parental Burnout

Returning guest Dr. Naomi Fisher joins host Leisa Reichelt and School Can’t Australia’s Tiffany Westphal and returning guest Dr. Naomi Fisher to deep dive into the pressing issue of parental burnout. 

Dr. Fisher, Clinical Psychologist and expert in supporting parents with burned out School Can’t kids, provides valuable insights into recognizing, understanding, and combating burnout among parents and carers. 

You’ll get practical tips for self-care that are achievable even for parents who have little or no time to themselves. We also discuss the impact of systemic pressures and strategies for managing chronic stress. 

Whether you’re a burned out parent or supporting someone who is in or near burnout, this episode offers a way to understand what is going on and what can be done to help make the journey a little more sustainable.

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:26 Introducing Dr. Naomi Fisher and Parental Burnout

01:33 Understanding Burnout: Signs and Symptoms

03:49 The Impact of School on Parental Burnout

04:47 Challenges of Home Education

06:35 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Parenting

09:58 Social Isolation and Judgment

14:46 Inner Critic and Self-Compassion

19:12 Rewriting Your Parenting Narrative

22:30 Naming Your Inner Voice

22:55 Creating Distance from Negative Thoughts

23:06 Self-Compassion and Friend Analogy

23:37 Thanking Your Inner Voice

23:51 Managing Threat Responses

25:28 Controlling Social Media Inputs

27:47 Systemic Impacts on Parental Burnout

30:11 Questioning the Education System

34:26 Sustainable Parenting Strategies

34:57 The Importance of Parental Self-Care

36:37 Dealing with Shame and Household Expectations

39:51 Investing in Mental Health

41:13 Resources for Burnt Out Parents

42:28 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Recommended Resources

• Understanding Burnout in our Children (Naomi’s previous episode on the pod) - https://www.buzzsprout.com/2447546/episodes/16923733
• Naomi’s website (books, courses, webinars) - https://naomifisher.co.uk/
• Think Again: Naomi’s substack/newsletter -

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend School can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today I'm joined by Tiffany Westphal from School Can't Australia, and we are delighted to be speaking with Dr. Naomi Fisher, who is joining us for a second guest appearance on the pod. Naomi is going to help us deep dive into the topic of parental burnout, which is no doubt a topic very close to the bone for many of us. Well, I have some good news. We're all about to get at least two or three very practical tips that all of us can start doing today, no matter what our circumstances. And no doubt you'll be pleased to hear it's not breathing exercises or getting out into nature. I really hope you enjoy our conversation with Dr. Naomi Fisher. Dr. Naomi Fisher, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. We spoke to you last a few months ago. we're, we're what, two thirds of the way through the school year. and everyone just feels a little bit like at the end of their tethers. Honestly. and we thought, who can we talk to about understanding burnout from a parent carer perspective. And, and you were an obvious choice. How do we know Naomi? if we or someone that we know is experiencing burnout as opposed to just being a bit tired and fed up.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 1:39

Yeah. So burnout. The first thing to say is burnout isn't really defined as a medical condition, which I actually think is a good thing. Because the way that the World Health Organisation defines burnout is they call it an occupational phenomenon. They basically say this is a result of being in a chronically stressful environment for too long. And there's nothing wrong with the body responding that way. It's basically the body's way of saying, stop Enough. I cannot do this anymore. And it's a functional response. And that's why they say it's not medical. It's because it doesn't mean there's any wrong with your body. Eliza Fricker did this lovely illustration for one of our books where there's a kind of demo of people holding up signs saying, Stop! Enough! Go to bed! It's your body's cutout. So basically burnout is when our are in a state of chronic stress for so long that we cannot anymore bring ourselves back to a a sort of equilibrium. So we all experience stress in our lives all the time and that, you know, sometimes we might be kind of energised by that stress. Sometimes we are de-energised by that stress, but we kind of go up and down through our lives and that's normal, that's how humans work. But when are in a state of chronic stress for too long, we get to that point where we can't bring ourselves back to equilibrium. So essentially, we never feel relaxed So it's not anymore a question: of I need a couple of hours off and then I can breathe out, or, you know, I'll go to the spa and I'll feel a bit better. I'll have a nice chat with a friend and I'll feel better. It's like no matter what I do I don't feel any better Even when perhaps a miracle happens and a problem you've been worrying about for a while gets resolved. You know, maybe your child finds a educational setting they're really happy at and you're like, my goodness, you don't relax. It doesn't feel any different. And it's that kind of state of just chronic I can't ever switch off. Which is your real red flag for this is burnout. Or heading into burnout. Does that sound familiar? Sorry, that's putting you on the spot there.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:48

No, Of course it does. I think the thing, it feels doubly familiar because a lot of us have seen this in our children. So we've said, okay, that school needs to stop, you know, for a short time or a long time or whatever the case may be. And so we take them out of school and that stops, but that doesn't stop it for us.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 4:07

stop being a parent, can you? And often our children are really dependent on us for their regulation needs, aren't they?

Dr Naomi Fisher: 4:15

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt: 4:16

When I took my son out of school and brought him home, just recently, I realized that actually before I would worry about school, within school hours mostly. When it was out of school hours, I didn't have to worry about him not being at school, but now he's home educating. I kind of feel I have to worry 24 7 about what I'm doing and not doing all that kind of thing. So it's like It's maybe less acute, but it's very sort of chronic.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 4:40

Yes. I absolutely know what you're talking about. Its a whole new set of worries that come in too, isn't it? And also actually, just to bring it back to the children, if they're really in burnout, then when they come out of school, there isn't always the kind of relief and bounce back that you are hoping for. So there can be more worry for the parent because you're like, I've made this major decision, which everybody thinks is a bad idea. Everybody's telling me is the wrong thing to do, but I feel very strongly it's the only option we've got. And yet they're still really unhappy and they still don't wanna leave the house and they're still not coming out of their bedrooms. And also people often talk about regression. They're like, you know, well, at least when they were going to school, sometimes they were putting on a uniform, sometimes they were getting out of the house. Sometimes, you know, there was a kind of routine to life, whether they went or not. And now we've stopped that routine. And what is there instead? And people sometimes, if they're gonna home educate, they have this idea. I met one family who are like, you know, took the child out of school. School ended on a Friday. By Monday they had three tutors booked in. They had classes that they were going to go to. You know, they had this idea they could seamlessly move into what they thought of as ideal home education. And of course what happened was the child was just like, no, I can't do this. There's absolutely no way that I can go and have this, join this class and do this, and all this kind of thing. And then the parents panic. Because its like, well, what are we doing? We've taken'em out of school and we're doing nothing. We are actually doing nothing. And I think, yeah, as you say, I think it's very, very high anxiety for parents. It's a massive responsibility, isn't it? To have taken on, particularly if everybody has told you not to do it, which generally they will have done. That it's the wrong decision. So you've taken on this huge decision, you've got this huge responsibility, and you don't see any results. And I think that's one of the reasons that parents are so susceptible to burnout is it's a marathon, not a sprint. There very few things in parenting where you get an immediate payoff, particularly if your child is one who finds life difficult, who finds school difficult. So, you know, we kind of need those moments of, I've worked really hard for this and look, here are the results. And you don't get that. Because you don't get that. there's never a payoff, is there? There's never a moment. And I think parents, particularly in our culture at the moment, where there's an enormous amount of comparison. We've got these social media platforms which are designed for comparison. People are posting pictures of their family and their achievements all the time. I remember when I was young, people used to send round Christmas letters, the kind of achievement letters. We used to hate them. my siblings and I would be like, aarrghhh, don't send something like that out about us. But now it's just all on Facebook. So at least then it was just at Christmas. But now every time you open up your Facebook feed or your Instagram feed, there are pictures of children doing amazing things or getting awards. And if you are always thinking, and we are not, we are not, and what's that going to mean for us, then that's gonna put you in a state of chronic stress. Because you are constantly feeling like you're lacking.

Leisa Reichelt: 7:53

It is funny, I was talking my mum on the phone the other day and she was telling me about, a friend of hers who is the grandfather of somebody who I follow on Facebook. And if you base what you know about that family on Facebook, you're like, these kids, all they're ever doing is outdoors, sporting, and winning all the medals. And their grandfather's going,'you know, those kids, they're never off screens. I dunno what's gonna become of them'.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 8:17

That's interesting. bet you they don't post the pictures of that, do they?

Leisa Reichelt: 8:22

I have not seen a picture of the kids on screens.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 8:25

No, no.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:25

No, no, no. It is funny, isn't it?

Dr Naomi Fisher: 8:27

We present this view well many people present this view to the rest of the world of what they think parenting should be.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:34

Yeah. Naomi, what are some of the major things that you are seeing are contributing to carer burnout?

Dr Naomi Fisher: 8:42

Well, I think it's often this feeling of being in perpetual crisis. So it's this feeling that there's always something going on which you have to worry about. And particularly if your child has been through years of school not going well, then you often will have been on this kind of rollercoaster of, well, we'll just try this. Let's just give this a go. And it's almost like you take a deep breath in, you cross all your fingers and toes, you hope it's gonna work out, it doesn't work out, and then it's another one. So you're kind of in this perpetual state of adrenaline, basically this perpetual state of emergency response. Gotta marshal my resources for this big push. But then it's just another big push and another big push. So I hear a lot about that.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 9:27

Yeah, or something goes for a while and stops. That sort of unpredictability, that kind of holding one's breath. How long is this gonna last, until the next...

Dr Naomi Fisher: 9:36

Yes. absolutely. that's part of the rollercoaster, isn't it It's that, oh my goodness, it seems to be working well. There's a honeymoon period. Oh no, here we are back again. I think that's a really destructive cycle for us as parents to go through because contributes to this feeling, we can never relax. We can never stop. We can never not worry because it always might go wrong. The other things I hear about a lot are other people. So I hear a lot about the judgment of other people. The perceived kind of ostracization, it's not quite the right word, but it's it's not, I don't think it's necessarily conscious on the part of other parents, but it's just this feeling of we are in this different place, which nobody really recognises. We don't have the same things to talk about. And when we talk to other parents, the things that they talk about just don't connect. And so the social networks break down really quickly.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 10:29

We notice when people come into School Can't Australia, the first thing is that sense of finally connecting with people who get it, who understand. And just that sense of relief at finally finding people who understand and who it's safe to talk about these things with.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 10:47

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:47

safety's a really good point, isn't it? We were talking to a dad the other day and he was just saying, every time someone says to me,'what's your kid doing about maths at home?' They're saying it out of interest, but he's just like, I just die of shame, because I know how they're gonna judge.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 11:02

Absolutely. So everything becomes a possible threat, doesn't it? Just a, chance meeting in the park can become a source of threat because you are waiting for those questions like, here it's always'What about GCSEs?' GCSEs are the exams that our young people take at age 16. And even if you take your 6-year-old out of school, people will start asking you about GCSEs. Don't know why. It seems like a national worry about what would happen if they don't do GCSEs. Oh my goodness. But yeah, the gap between the reality, which might be a child who has really, really struggled for a long time and maybe spending all their time on a device at home and the expectation of those around you, which is that if you're home educating that you're sitting them down in the morning and you're doing your maths work and you're doing your English, and you're doing all the things you would be doing at school. So I think there's that gap, which really leads to social isolation. So the three factors that the World Health Organization sort of, outlines as this main signs of burnout are, exhaustion and low energy, feeling of negativity about everything, and a sense that you can't be productive in things that nothing does anything. So a sort of sense of inefficacy, like whatever I do, it doesn't make a difference. I think this sense of I can't be productive, I can never be productive. You can really see how that comes about for parents, can't you? Because part of parenting is you try so hard, you know, the analogy I often use with parents is, you know, you can put an amazing amount of effort into cooking the perfect meal for your child and then your child will say, couldn't you just make me chicken nuggets? You know. There's no relative payoff for the amount of effort you put in and the results that you might get. In fact, it's almost the opposite way round.

Leisa Reichelt: 12:56

And the very little positive feedback. Nobody says to you, gee, you're doing a good job of being my mum.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 13:03

No, no. And you or Or other people say that as well. And actually when other people do say that, such an amazing moment. If your child isn't getting the plaudits, and the awards and the achievements, then it's very rare for somebody else to say, wow, you are doing a really great job. When my children were very small, I took them on a train journey once and it was a really difficult train journey. I think my son was about three and my daughter was a baby in the sling. It was just me on my own and I basically worked that whole train journey to keep my son and to keep my daughter not crying. And at the end of the train journey, an older woman came up to me and she patted me and said, you are doing a fabulous job. And even now remembering it, this is like 14 years ago, still kind of makes me feel choked up a bit because it was just an amazing moment. I almost just bawled that she had recognized how hard I had been working on that railway journey. The sort of irony of parenting or the paradox of parenting is that when it all goes well, your work's completely invisible. And generally people don't recognize it. It's rare for somebody to notice that invisible work that you're doing.

Leisa Reichelt: 14:12

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, Naomi, I had to quit my job to stay home and look after my son, and a lot of people who I used to work with they would say, oh, your son's so lucky to have you. You know, he is so fortunate to have you as his mum. And I cannot hear that. As soon as they say, that kind of bounces off me because I also think, well, it's'cause I had that job that maybe we're in the situation that we're in. And like it's just like blame, blame, blame, guilt, guilt, guilt. So I don't get any nourishment from that at all. I imagine heaps of other people are in a similar situation.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 14:45

I absolutely hear you. And actually that's something else I wanted to talk about with relation to parent burnout, which is that thing I start with when I'm working with a parent who I think is in burnout or about to go into burnout, is their own inner voice. Their own self-criticism because it's pretty well ubiquitous. I've found that with parents whose child has gone through a hard time or is going through a hard time, we blame ourselves and we criticize ourselves and we say, if only I had done this, or if only I had, you know, stayed at home with them when they were smaller or put them into nursery earlier so they got more used to other people or, did more maths with them earlier so they were ready for school, did less maths with them so that they weren't sort of already, there were infinite opportunities to beat yourself up in parenting. Really, whatever you do, there's an opportunity to beat yourself up. And I think women particularly are very good at this and this inner voice means that you can never get the payoff. Because it's always, oh, well you just don't know the terrible other things I've done, or you just don't know how badly these things are going. And we do that to ourselves as well. It's very hard to feel, for example, pleased with ourselves for decisions that we've made when we've got that kind of weight of anxiety about it. So one of the things I'll often say to parents is, you took your child out of school because you saw that this was really not working for them. That is a really brave decision. Well done. How did you do that? What enabled you to make that decision? Seeing your child and being so responsive to their needs, despite all these other people saying, oh, you don't wanna do that, you'll ruin their lives. You know, people have literally said that they, a one woman said, her daughter was autistic and they had a pediatrician who they saw, and she talked to the pediatrician and said, you know, I'm thinking about taking her out of school. And the pediatrician said, if you do that, you'll ruin your own life and hers. So unhelpful. And also, a pediatrician doesn't actually know anything about Home Education beyond what anybody else would know about Home Education. But because they're a doctor, its got an extra weight and an extra gravitas, even though they don't know anything about it.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:04

Naomi, I have to say my inner voice is very good at responding to your encouraging note from before, and I can tell you all the reasons why I shouldn't feel good about that. What do we do when we've got such a well developed inner voice of guilt and blame on ourselves? How do you start to unpick that? Because this feels like really practical advice. Easier than go out and have yoga sessions every night or all the other things Yeah. How do we do this?

Dr Naomi Fisher: 17:30

So I think the first thing is to recognize it as an inner voice and not as truth. Because actually, that's quite a big difference. You know, if you believe your inner voice, if you think that it's right, then you are what we call enmeshed with it. You can't do anything about it. It's just you. Whereas if you are able to kind of cultivate what we call an observer mentality, so you're able to say, there's my inner voice again, that's that critical inner voice again. I like visual metaphors, so I sometimes think about those fountains, which my children used to love and they were small, you know, which just sort of spurt up water from the ground. and then the children run and play in it, and then it spurts up somewhere else. And I like that kind of metaphor. I'm like, Ooh, there's another one of those inner criticisms. Oh, there's another one and there's another one. So that you are able to just see them as part of your internal process rather than something which you necessarily have to stop. So you know those fountains, you can go and stand on them and you can push it back for a while. But actually the longer you do that for, the bigger the force gets and the more it's gonna explode when you take your foot off. And our inner thoughts are a bit like that as well. The more you kind of try and engage with them, the more you try and rationalize yourself out of it, talk yourself out of it. It can all become quite counterproductive. It can basically mean that when it does come out, it comes out bigger.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 18:48

Yeah, it's really hard in the context of so many of our families report you know, impact on mental health. But also impact on physical health. In that context, they also experience this really negative sense of themselves as parents. Their efficacy as parents If it was just one of those things, I think it would be easier.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 19:12

No, it's so difficult and there are so many different things going on, and I think one of the other things that I suggest to parents sometimes is thinking about the story that you are telling about your life. And the story that you tell yourself about your life, because there are many, many different stories that we tell ourselves about our lives and some of them are, I'm a terrible parent and I've done all these things wrong. And those ones, our brains selectively attend to that kind of information. Our brains have evolved to selectively attend to negative information and threat because our brains wanna keep us alive. So, we have to deliberately try and access those other bits of ourselves, those other stories. And sometimes I say to parents, how about if you write a story and it probably not about you, because actually, if it's about you, that will bring in all kinds of inhibitions. But how about another parent who makes the same choices that you have made and write a story. It doesn't have to be very long about their life from a positive perspective

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 20:15

Mm-hmm.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 20:15

Not because that's the only story, not because you've gotta get that one right, but just because you are not making that kind of connection. So for example, there was a mother whose child was really unhappy at school and she tried really hard to help that child manage to be happier at school. She did all these things to try and make her child happier at school and none of it was working. And so that mother made the brave decision to take her child out of school and everybody said she was doing the wrong thing. So, do you know what I mean? So actually write that narrative, kind of connect up the dots for yourself. When I got parents to do this, they sometimes, often they avoid it initially. They say, no, no, no, that won't make any difference. I'm not gonna do that. And I push them a little bit and sometimes we'll actually write the story together. And it's usually really emotional. They usually cry. Really it's, and it's like you're kind of accessing all that repressed emotion that they haven't been able to think about and access And you sort of able to help people see you from a different perspective. And I think that's where the community element is so important as well, that when you are in the community with other people going through it, usually mothers or fathers, but mothers particularly, are much more compassionate towards other mothers than they are towards themselves. So sometimes just being able to think about the story as another person can mean that you can tap into some of that. Wow. I have done amazing things here.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 21:41

I really like applying Ross Greene's,'Kids do well if they can' to ourselves and say, you know, well I did the best that I could with the knowledge, the resources, the supports, the advice that I got. I was doing the best that I could and to. Uh, I often talk to parents about self-compassion and just that permission to have learned from the journey. And you know, hindsight can be a dreadful kill joy because if we could go back and do things of course we would do them differently. You know? But it's best to focus on the future and the hope and the optimism and just, to live in that moment, I find. And to look with compassion on the past.

Leisa Reichelt: 22:30

You reminded me of something I saw, on Instagram of a woman who gives her inner voice another name, and her inner voice will say something and she'll be like, not today, Hilda. We don't have time for that.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 22:43

Yeah, Eliza drew an illustration of a little sort of gremlin on a mother's shoulder, always saying, oh, you haven't done that very well, have you? And someone else would've done that much better than you. Um, and that helps too, if you are a visual person, draw it. being able to do that, creates that distance, which is only a small thing to start with, but I think is the start of being able to develop some more self-compassion.

Leisa Reichelt: 23:06

I think if you combine that with that whole idea of would you say this to a friend? if your friend was in the same situation, would you say these things to them? Of course you wouldn't.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 23:14

No. Would it be helpful? would you think it would be helpful to

Leisa Reichelt: 23:17

It's not kind.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 23:18

like this The other thing actually that I find can be helpful if in that kind of distancing thing and not fighting with your inner voice.'cause the fight with your inner voice gives it more space. And that's often what people talk to me about. Like, you know, have these thoughts and I'm like, I wish I didn't have these thoughts anymore. I want'em to go away. And actually when you do that, you're kind of shining light on those thoughts. So one of the tricks that I sometimes use myself and I suggest other people try is actually just saying, thank you. We've got brain or Hilda, or whatever it is. I know you're trying to keep me safe. Thank you, but that's okay. I got it right now. So the kind of meeting that threat response,'cause the thing is that when, your brain is going to, ah, this is dangerous, this is a terrible situation. You need to do something differently. And your response is right. I'll do some deep breathing. Try to calm down. Your brain thinks there's an emergency, so it's gonna up the ante rather than turn it down. If someone comes running up to you and says there's a burning house down there, and you're like, just take some deep breaths. you know, go and have a bath. it's not gonna calm them down. They think there's a burning house down there. So you need to kinda say, thank you for letting me know. You've passed on the information. I've got it. Which actually does enable you to breathe out a little bit more. But it's not easy. And it's, it's actually, you know, I think of it like you're trying to retrain your brain, basically. You're trying to help yourself see the other ways of seeing things. Bring an air of self-compassion to yourself, that's a necessary first step before you are able to think about. And how could I then physically look after myself? You know, we often skip to the physically look after yourself, go and get some exercise or go and meet with a friend, all that kind of thing. But if you are beating yourself up because you think you're doing a terrible job and you think that you absolutely don't deserve any time off because you're doing it so badly, you are not going to be able to do that. I mean, quite apart from the physical difficulties of organizing that which are considerable for lots of parents, there's a kind of mental block as well.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:17

Yeah, that's great.'cause I think that is one of the big issues people are like, oh, well if you wanna get out of burnout, you have to like. Go and have a big rest, take some time off, go do yoga. No, you can't.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 25:29

There's one other thing that I think parents can do, where whatever their situation is, which is control the inputs that are coming into you. So I've talked a bit about social media and comparisons. Most parents that I meet will spend quite a lot of time scrolling on social media, because they're exhausted and worn out, and the only time they get are these little envelopes of time, and they might be interrupted at any point. So social media fits into that perfectly. The problem with that is that if you ask them, they'll say, actually, I feel worse after that than better. And it's because I've seen all these things that I'm not doing. Or sometimes you see a lot of outrage, don't you? I mean, there's all sorts of things that you see on social media. And so actually saying, right, I'm going to think really carefully about what I kind of allow into my space, apart from my child and my family, where I haven't got the same level of control really. So when I'm bringing something in, I'm gonna think about what that is. And it might mean just deciding, you know, this group is nourishing for me, these are not, and I'm going to just not check them. Or these WhatsApp groups. Not helpful for me to know what everybody else in my child's class is doing. I'm just not going to check. I'm going to delete, Whatever you need to do. Personally, in my case, I needed to get rid of all of my notifications. Because I found notifications all the time, kept me in this kind of state of high threat and alert and it was quite hard work to get rid of every notification. Your phone really wants to send you notifications all the time. And it took me, quite a while, but being really deliberate about it. And one of the ways to do that is to think, when you do have a moment, think about what kind of things would I like to be doing that I might find more nourishing? And they don't have to be big things. It might be podcasts about things you enjoy, not, necessarily about parenting. It might be audio books, it might be puzzles or crosswords. Make yourself a list and then when you do have a moment of time, go to that rather than doing what almost certainly your natural inclination will be, which is to go and start scrolling on social media. Because that is something you can control. You can say, right, I'm just not gonna have these comparisons right now. They're not helpful for me. And I can control more what's coming in for me.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:44

Fantastic. That is great advice. Tiffany, I think you wanted to talk about the systemic impacts that create burnout in parents and carers. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 27:56

Yeah, those are much harder things to think about because you have less control. But noticing them, I think and acknowledging that they're problems, they're stressors, is sometimes part of the problem. We just have this expectation that that, it won't be difficult to deal with the school. How do you manage all the stuff that's hard and is it okay to take a break from it?.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 28:20

Yeah. There are so many systemic pressures which push people towards burnout.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 28:26

The messaging from government too, about attendance and how, it's crucial that your child has a 90% attendance rate, or they're doomed.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 28:39

No, we have exactly the same messaging. People send me pictures all the time of things like, you know, five minutes a day missed, and your chances go down in life. It's like, what? When you think about this rationally, it doesn't make any sense. And what's it meant to be doing? It just makes people feel terrible when it's not going well. At some point you have to be thinking, is this helpful for us? Is this not helpful for us? So I think it's okay to prioritize. It's okay to be saying, right, these are the, we have to do this. Even if we really don't want to. And then these ones are not gonna do them right now and we're gonna kind of take some control and say, sorry, this isn't possible for us right now. That's really difficult and I think many of us who have children who aren't suited to school, it's sometimes the first time where we've really had to be the bad, the bad guys are quite the right word. I mean, often lots, lots of people I talk to, got through school by being good, by complying, by, playing by the rules. And now they've got this child who isn't playing by the rules. These implicit rules of, you must do this, we must go there. And it's really hard for people who've spent their whole life being good. To suddenly not be good anymore and not to be perceived as good. to be saying, actually no, we won't do that. You've got a kind of people pleasing group of people who've got through life a certain way and then their child is very clearly showing that that strategy is not gonna work anymore. And actually it kind of blows open a lot of things about the system, doesn't it? It makes you see a lot of things about the system that you didn't see before.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 30:16

We find ourselves as a community questioning so many things that many of us have taken for granted about what's the purpose of education or what is the nature of discipline and compliance and coercion and rewards and consequences and where does all of that fit. And just to question every single aspect of parenting and the meaning of childhood and education. There's labour involved in that, you know. It's stress to be unpacking those things that most of the community takes for granted and to be pushing those things too, because we have to, or it's gonna kill our kids.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 30:59

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 30:59

combine those two things together of all of that work to understand And then, standing up to authority figures who you spent all your life trying to please and trying to educate them on something while they are disdainful of what you're saying.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 31:15

And that's I think why connections between parents are so important and particularly connections with parents who are maybe at a different stage of the journey to you. I think there's something so powerful about parents who've come out of the other end of the education system can look back and go, you know what, it wasn't a disaster that we did this. The book I'm writing at the moment, is for teenagers and it's called The Teenagers Guide to Taking Control of Your Education. It's self-help book and I interviewed 17 teenagers for it. Some of them had never been to school, but most of them had been to school a bit and then had stopped going they were between 14 and 19. One girl said to me, you know, everyone thinks it's such a big deal not going to school. It's not such a big deal. And I think I just wanted to magnify voices like hers.'cause I think there's something so powerful about hearing that from a teenager to whom this happened, been through that experience. And it's the same with parents. There's something so powerful about parents who've got older teenagers or their kids are now in their twenties and they can see that life beyond school is there.'Cause the one blessing of school as an institution is that you do age out of it.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 32:26

Yeah.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 32:27

I often say to teenagers who are really despondent, It's like, you know, when you get to in our country, 17 or 16, they won't have you at school even if you want to go, you know, it's a bizarre system where you have to be there between these ages, but now once you're too old, that's it. You know, you, they won't let you back in. So it is going to end, this pressure. And there is gonna be a time when actually you don't even have to mention to other people that you didn't go to school if you don't want to. You don't have to make that part of your story. We haven't talked about my story here, but I think I talked about this last time I was on your podcast about the years that I really struggled with school as a teenager. Now, I have to deliberately bring it up. People don't know about it. And they assume that couldn't be the case for somebody like me because I've gone on to achieve and I've got degrees and you know, but so my kind of struggles at school. They're just like a side note now. Whereas at the time they were kind of the center of everything. And I think that, that, why connections between parents are so important and finding those stories from other people.

Leisa Reichelt: 33:36

Asking for a friend, Naomi, if somebody is feeling burnt out and their strategy is, I'm just gonna keep pushing through this until I don't need to do it anymore, How's that gonna work out for us?

Dr Naomi Fisher: 33:47

Well, that strategy will only really works if there is actually going to be an end in sight. And usually for parenting there isn't one. But I think that's a trap that lots of parents get caught in. I think I talked about that at the beginning. This kind of trap, we'll try this and this will be the solution. We'll get this and this will be the moment that will solve everything. And so you put enormous effort into whatever it is, this new thing that's going to be the answer with the kind of idea in the back of your head that, at some point I'll be able to stop. And with parenting, that doesn't usually happen. Because there's always something else coming up. So I think we have to change our mindset to think like, okay, it continues to be as hard as it is right now for the next potentially, 10 years, how can I make it sustainable for myself? Because the parents are the linchpin of all of this. We know that if we are the people making it all happen, that means that we have to look after ourselves because we want to still be there and be okay to do this in 10 years time. I try and sort of help parents think that actually this is looking after their child to look after themselves. It's not taking time out. It's maintenance. Basically it's maintenance work. You need to maintain your own mental and physical health so you can continue to be the exceptional parent that you are needing to be for your child. And again, often the way to help people think about that is say if this was your sister or your friend would you be thinking yes, they just need to push through and I'm sure they can do it. And, uh, they never, they never think that somebody else can do it. It's only with ourselves that we have this idea that we are different and we can push through under any circumstances. So my advice would be you can't think about it as a time of short term crisis, which is often what we get into that kind of mindset. This is a short term crisis, just gotta push through this. it's just life and there's lots of ups and downs and it's like a never ending rollercoaster, you need to work out how to make that rollercoaster. I hate rollercoasters by the way, I get sick on them. But how you, how, how am I gonna make this sustainable? We need to make it okay for ourselves, even when things are going wrong, which is very difficult. I'm not saying it's easy at all.

Leisa Reichelt: 36:07

Exactly. I'm in wrapping up mode right now. So Naomi if there's something that you wanted to say that we haven't covered yet, now is the time.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 36:16

No, it's been really nice to talk to you about it actually.'cause I think. We don't spend enough time focusing on parents and on the parental journey, we always start talking about the kids. It's so easy to go to that. And I think that's the case when parents meet up as well. It's so easy to be talking about the children and so hard, to talk about our own journeys. One of the things actually we didn't talk much about that I think is really important with parental burnout is shame. There's so much shame about what is happening to your child, what's happening to you, and that shame is a block for ourselves for our compassion, but it's also a block towards being open with other people about how things are.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 36:56

yeah. Just a few thoughts about shame. Shame is so powerful and so limiting. Sometimes the shame is about the life that I don't have, that I think that I should have. I've had to give permission to myself to have a messy kitchen. You know, there's a cleanup right before we're cooking. That's the way it is at our place There's clutter everywhere. and I've just had to let go of some of those things in order to still have energy to do all the co-regulation and the connection and the being there with my kid and having the energy, because that other stuff is an energy drain too. I've made that choice to just let go of that stuff. But I still carry this sense of shame that I should have a clean house, and that I'm being judged for it.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 37:48

And yet you've made such a deliberate, good decision there. When my children were younger, I decided for myself that whenever there was a choice between the house and the children, I would always choose the children.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 38:02

I'm choosing me in that moment too, and saying,

Dr Naomi Fisher: 38:06

yes.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 38:06

I don't have energy to do it all, so what am I gonna do?

Dr Naomi Fisher: 38:10

You're being realistic about where you think your energy are best spent.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 38:14

Yeah.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 38:15

I think being able to own that to say, my kitchen, and I'm talking about my kitchen here, not yours, Tiff, but my kitchen is a state. I have chosen that because my priorities are my children and my emotional wellbeing. That's different to my kitchen is a state because I'm a useless,

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 38:36

Yeah.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 38:36

a useless person, which is often the narrative that we've got in our heads. And I had to work really actively for myself to let go of those. The state of my house reflects on how worthwhile a person that I am. One of the things I used to say to families when my children were younger and people would sometimes come round, I would say to them, I'm not gonna apologize for the state of my house. I see the way that my house is as a kind of about what it's really like home educating in our life right now. I hope that maybe it might make you feel a bit better about the state of your own house. People really opened up when I said that, people would say, oh, it's such a relief that your kitchen floor is sticky But I think making it a choice and naming that choice for yourself is really powerful because then you are saying, this is a decision I have made. Rather than, this is because I'm inadequate, which is what most of us jump to.

Leisa Reichelt: 39:37

I used to pretend that my house was just like that because of something that had happened that day or that week. I'm really sorry. It's just been a particularly busy week. I've stopped apologizing, but I like your idea of going this, I'm deliberately doing this. Naomi, you kind of implied earlier that you do a lot of work with parents and that made me think of something else, which is like parents investing in their own mental health through therapy. I went to my GP the other day and she wrote me a mental health plan because she could see I was coming apart a little bit on the day that I went and saw her.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 40:08

Lots of people are very nervous about seeing a psychologist or a therapist because they're worried they'll be told to send their child back to school. Or that the psychologist will immediately be like, what? Your child doesn't go to school? And actually the judgment and shame will come into the therapy room. that is really difficult. It's hard to invest in your own mental health, isn't it? it's not at all easy. I think therapy has a place and can be helpful for some people, but I don't think it's the only way to look after your mental health. I think even doing something informally, like if you've got somebody who really does get it, another parent say, let's make time once a week where we have an hour and we can just each talk for half an hour. You know, both ways and just have a bit of time of reflective listening. But sort of deliberately setting up something like that for yourself

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 40:53

Yeah.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 40:54

can be a really important first step towards something changing.

Leisa Reichelt: 40:59

Definitely and the School Can't Australia Facebook peer support group for parents is next level at that, I have to say. So Thanks to everybody who is part of, that and participating in supporting each other there. Any resources, Naomi, that you can think of that we should be recommending to parents who are feeling the burnout?

Dr Naomi Fisher: 41:21

I do have a, I do have an online course called burnt Out by Parenting, I do live webinars, which. I do a couple of times a month. And then I also sell those as prerecorded courses, on my website. If you prefer a live event and lots of people do, I think particularly if you're quite burnt out, actually it can be hard to do something prerecorded, even though I've divided them up into little sections and tried to make them easy to watch. But sometimes it's easier, just know, right. It's live. I need to go now and I get a few people from Australia, so my timing must be okay.

Leisa Reichelt: 41:52

I've dialed into a couple and yeah, it is, great just to see flood of people in the comments just going, oh my God. Me too. Me too.

Tiffany Westphal (she/her): 42:00

Leisa, can. I just give a plug too for Carers Gateway and, the carer service providers in each state and territory in Australia too. I think, it's worth parents reaching out to those organizations to request support if needed. It's free.

Leisa Reichelt: 42:17

Alright then. Thank you so much Naomi. It's been an absolute pleasure as usual. Really, really appreciate you taking the time.

Dr Naomi Fisher: 42:23

Thank you very much for inviting me. It's been a lovely be back here with you.

Leisa Reichelt: 42:27

We'll see you next time. Well, I really hope you're feeling a little bit better after spending some quality time with Dr. Naomi Fisher, and I hope you have a few ideas of things you could be doing today to start your own self-care. I personally will be working on thanking my critical inner voice for their help and asking them to stand down a little bit more often. I have put links to all things Naomi in the episode notes, as well as a link to the Carers Gateway for our Australian listeners. There's also links to School Can't Australia, where you can find so many resources and supports to assist on your School can't journey. If you found our podcast helpful, please take a moment to share or subscribe. Or for bonus points, give us a rating or a review. This really does help us get the podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and who haven't found our community or the information that we share. If you have some feedback for us or a suggestion for a future guest, please drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Thank you again for listening, and we will talk again soon. Take care.