The School Can't Experience

#34 - NeuroWild’s Em Hammond on the problem with ‘Just Have a Go’

• School Can't Australia • Season 1 • Episode 34

Share episode

Em Hammond of Neurowild joins us for this special episode. Em, a speech therapist and illustrator, emphasizes the importance of understanding and supporting neurodivergent children, particularly in educational settings. 

We talk through Em’s resource called ‘Reasons Why Autistic Kids May Not Be OK With ‘Having a Go’ and why this request can be ableist, dismissive of our kids experience and ultimately traumatising. Em highlights the importance of validating children's experiences  and asking them about the best ways we can offer them support that actually helps.. 

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:26 Introducing Em Hammond: NeuroWild

03:43 Supporting Neurodivergent Kids in Education

05:37 Challenges with Educators and Neurodiversity

07:14 The Importance of Context and Communication

09:59 The 'Have a Go' Dilemma

19:31 Understanding Neurodivergent Kids' Needs

21:26 The Pressure of Being Perceived

22:42 The Fear of Failure and Its Impact

23:37 Logical and Analytical Thinking in Kids

26:47 Gestalt Language Processing in Neurodivergent Kids

35:27 Understanding Ableism 

39:50 Resources and Support for Parents


Recommended Resources

Send us a text

Support the show

If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you

You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com

Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today's very special guest is Em Hammond. You might know Em as NeuroWild online. Em is a speech therapist and she's also a beautiful illustrator who takes complex ideas about neurodiversity and makes them approachable and easy for anyone to understand. In this episode I wanted to talk to Em about one resource she's created that really resonated with me, which was about how asking our neurodivergent kids to just'have a go' can be really damaging. I am definitely guilty of doing this with my kids, and I'm sure many of you have used the same tactic as well. I hope you enjoy our conversation. thank you so much Em, for joining us for our podcast today. I know a lot of people will be very thrilled and excited to hear from you because they're avid followers of all of the work that you put out on social media, and we see that shared so often in the School Can't Australia Facebook support group for parents. So super exciting to talk to you today.

Em:

Thanks for the invite.

Leisa Reichelt:

let's start, by just getting a little bit of context for you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background? What's your story?

Em:

I am a late diagnosed autistic and ADHDer, speech therapist and illustrator, mom to three neurodivergent kids, and I guess I arrived here through my clinical work, as a speechie, when I was new to the neurodiversity affirming movement and shift, I kept coming against this issue where I would try to explain something fairly complex to a family or a kid, or a client or a teacher. And it was never simple. 45 minutes talking one particular topic, trying to explain it, and then get to the end of the 45 minutes. And still people don't seem to have grasped I was getting at. And I kind of just fell back on my drawing skills, I suppose, and just said, you know, I can think of an analogy to explain this, or an example, or a symbol or a visual to explain this concept better and made the first one, I think it was, might have been the double empathy problem and was quite astounded by how quickly people were able to grasp that complex idea in a tiny fraction of the time in 15 seconds of reading. And then they, they understand and go, ah,

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

that just showed me in a really big way that that's what I should be doing more of. Because how many topics did I need to explain again and again and again that I was finding tricky. So that's led us to here and I'm still doing it.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah. it is incredible, isn't it? And I guess it gives you so much more scale as well, ability to impact so many more lives, which is amazing.

Em:

It is. And that was never the plan from the beginning. It was just. I need this in the, four walls of my therapy sessions.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

when I saw how useful it was and I thought, well, I better let other clinicians access this resource as well. And then it spread from there to parents and families and other allied health clinicians and all over. So that's been pretty wild.

Leisa Reichelt:

Something that I know you do a lot of work on is trying to help support educators to understand neurodiversity better and to think about how to support neurodiverse kids in an educational context. How did that become something that you leaned into?

Em:

inevitable, I suppose, because the majority of kids that I was supporting directly clinically, were school aged. when I sat down and reflected on the best way to holistically support these kids, I kept remembering that I see them for such a short amount of time each week or each fortnight. their family has got them for the majority of the time, or their teacher, so family and their teacher are the two people who are gonna have the most influence on this kid. They have the most time with them. They are optimally placed to be really neuro affirming. Give them the support, make a big difference to this kid's life and to their wellbeing. Big picture. I was less well placed to do that, only having seen them for a session a week or a session a fortnight. So it was an intentional kind of thing to go, how can I try and get this kid's parents and this kid's teacher onto the same page so that these affirming messages that I am communicating with them and helping them build, helping them build up their wellbeing and their sense of self regard, that kind of thing. How can I get that coming from a few more different angles for this kid? I'm gonna try and give them the best shot to absorb this and to feel good about themself and their brain. So, I had to figure out ways to get that communication with schools. It doesn't work when you've got a clinician saying, this is what I need you to do for this kid at school. And the teacher says, I don't agree.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

I'm gonna do this because this is the way I've been trained. that doesn't help the kid. And that's been a really uncomfortable and tricky thing to navigate, because a lot of teachers have not gone through this same journey that I have to arrive at this neuro-affirming lens. They've done their own journey of training and their own life experiences and they've arrived at a really different place to me. And it's hard to shift beliefs that you've held for a really, really long time. And, if you are in spaces where your belief systems are just being reinforced by everybody who shares those, there's no need to push outwards and change. So it it is tricky. There are certainly lots of teachers who kind of come and ask questions and say, I wanna be affirming. Help me. it's obviously a lot easier to work with them than the ones who say, I've been a teacher for 40 years and I don't need you to tell me how to run my class. Thanks. which also happens quite a lot.

Leisa Reichelt:

I think a lot of School Can't parents have been in a room with educators and their allied health support people and heard the educators say, well, that's great that you have that point of view, but like, you don't know about education, you don't know about educating, you know, we'll, we'll take your thoughts on board and make our own decisions. And it is kind of disheartening at times.

Em:

It makes me really upset a lot of the time whenever I have to go to that space in my mind or into those conversations. I did make a little bit of a breakthrough in my mind quite recently about it. A lot of clinicians showing up to schools, handing over recommendations, goals, IEP outlines, things like that. Saying this kid needs these supports, All of that is based on the thinking we have done, all of the learning we have done, and we are not bringing teachers into our thinking. We're not inviting them to do that thinking on their own. We are just giving them things to do. Maybe legally they do have to do them because we might get it into an IEP, but I'm not convinced that they're gonna do them in an affirming way. You know, it's gonna be fine. We'll give this kid this set of accommodations. But, they're presented in a way that the kid is never gonna wanna use them because they are going to be the center of attention, or there's been a negative vibe about it, or, the classroom isn't safe for it. You know, lots of different things. So we need to do the thinking with the teachers first before we give them things to do, because thinking has to come first. The thinking informs the doing.

Leisa Reichelt:

It makes me think that in those situations you're handing over the what without giving the why. What you say about, you know, you can have these accommodations which go, if you're feeling dysregulated, you can leave the classroom for 20 minutes and go to this place. But the way that it's done can mean that kids will never do that because they don't wanna draw attention to themselves or they don't feel safe in the wellbeing space, which is sadly a thing too.

Em:

Yeah. Or that the access to the supports comes with conditions. So you can have a break, but it's this many minutes at the back of a classroom with this particular support, and then you need to do this and come back

Leisa Reichelt:

My son used to be able to go to the wellbeing space, the counselor space, but the rule was you could only be there for 20 minutes. he was like, well, what's the point? Because how will I know that I'll feel better in 20 minutes, and I know that I'm being watched and observed to make sure that I'm not here in 20 minutes time. it was just more stressful than it was helpful.

Em:

We had a situation where the teacher told the whole class that a student could use fidget tools in the classroom if they have a letter from their doctor. Which, you know, really going, it's look at this child with this medical problem and or illness or sickness that they need permission from a doctor to use this versus it could, it didn't have to happen that way. no kid in there is like, I can be seen with a fidget

Leisa Reichelt:

It's a symbol of being broken.

Em:

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt:

Well, on behalf of all of us. Thank you for doing the work. Em, keep going. We're, sending you all the support that we possibly can. Let's change tack then. I wanted to talk about having a go. There was something about, posts that you made a, a little while ago would link to it so people could, can see it on Facebook. But it was just about that whole, like, oh, just have a go. You know, you'll try it, it'll probably be fine. it just, my head was nodding off because I was like, that happened to me all the time when I was a kid. And I have used it on my own child on many occasions as well. Just the way that you broke it down as to why, for particularly our neurodiverse kiddos. Having a go is not the little ask that it might sound like, but it actually is much greater demand and often really problematic. I thought it was very insightful. So I wonder, was there a particular thing that triggered you into making that, or have you just got a long list of things to cover?

Em:

It was an end of year school night award ceremony, I think. And it was a, I watched the child, I didn't know, be sort of encouraged, encouraged, encouraged to head up on the stage and receive the award in front of this auditorium full of people. And it was really upsetting to watch, the number of adults who didn't know. I, noticed, everyone noticed what her body was doing in her message, you know, she was very clear about it, how uncomfortable and upsetting and distressing it was. None of that was good enough to stop the adults encouraging, encouraging, encouraging. Because receiving award, receiving award for your beautiful whatever, that's a lovely positive thing. You definitely need to come and have this experience. You're gonna love it. It's a lovely positive thing. And that projecting about that experience onto this kid when it was very clearly to this whole room full of people, not a lovely positive thing. Receiving this award in front of everybody here was traumatic. And I hate how most of the parents, everyone is going, oh, she ended up getting onto the stage and getting her award. This is a big win. Yay. You did it. That was the outcome we wanted and we're happy about it. We're gonna tell you that we're so happy about it. And thought that was so off the mark for what should have happened here for this kid? And it was because of adults projecting and going, you know, an adult looking at that particular situation or any situation where you're saying have a go is often the adult has appraised it as safe. You are not going to get hurt going and having a go here. There's terrible consequence on the other side of your go. I am going to push you into this uncomfortable thing because actually I think you're gonna enjoy it. Other kids your age seem to enjoy it, I enjoyed it when I was your age or what have you. I don't know about you, but those kinds of situations that are, you know, physically, sure, my body's fine, but my brain is on fire. This is, I'm burning here. I'm going to think about it forever and it's going to be a source of trauma forever, and I'm going to go over it and over it again in my head. That is the badness of it. Sure my body's safe, but that was the thing I wanted to avoid. because it does not help me carrying that baggage moving forward into any activity. I wish I hadn't been put into this situation right now. And its tricky because a lot of adults love the word resilience and doing things that you don't like or doing things that you are a bit scared of. That's building resilience, isn't it? You do need to be able to. Give it a go, do those things. And particularly in Australia where that is like a big part of our culture is that we're gonna give it go. And that we are not that fussed about much. Um, easygoing. I think it's just dismissive of those kids who are pushed into those situations. They do get that horrible experience and then they get to carry it and adults brush it off.

Leisa Reichelt:

I think the risk and the damage are really invisible in a lot of ways, aren't they? But that doesn't make them not real.

Em:

Not even invisible, you know, if I'm thinking of this little one at this award ceremony, it was very visible, but it's so easy for a room full of people to dismiss that and go, that's a silly childish, that's nothing to worry about. with the have a go thing a lot of the time that is said to kids when the adults have thought that it's gonna be enjoyable,

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

this is an extracurricular thing. Just have a go. Have a go at that game. Have a go at that sport. it's fun. You're gonna think that it's fun. people have different ideas of fun if your goal is for that child to find fun, find enjoyment, they are gonna need some measure of comfort and safety to do that, first of all. But if pushing them to, shut down, break down meltdown, did you achieve your goal? in adult minds, they're thinking. My goal is for you to have fun, but actually it's just that you participate.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah.

Em:

And maybe those two have been conflated

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah, sometimes it's not about fun, it's just that it's not that bad. you'll go and do this, and you'll discover that it's not that bad, and then it will be okay for next time. It's weird though, isn't it? Because a lot of us have at some point in our life, had an experience where we were anxious about doing something and then we did it, and then it was good or it was fine. And that does happen sometimes. when you want good things for your child, you don't want them to be held back from opportunities, so you're like, I'll give them a little nudge, and then they might go, oh, I'm really glad that I did that, even though I was a bit scared.

Em:

I think it is just about tuning in to your kid. That's all. I think. you are the parent, you're the expert on your kid. you are collecting experiences with them to know what you are thinking they're gonna react to something. What sort of prompting, if any, is effective or really not. You have tried things before. You've seen what's happened. if you have a kid who is really nervous at new things, but you know, with the scaffolding, the encouragement with the mom's here with you, we can give it a go. We can also leave if you like. We're just gonna give it 10 minutes, something like that, and then circle back after and go, are you glad that we stayed? was that a good thing? Was it helpful that I did X, Y, and Z? Yes or no? Do you think you might wanna come back? I think parents sitting there waiting to go. Aha. I was right. See, I think that's unhelpful because your kid isn't a robot. You know what I mean? Like they've, they've got different things happening at every single

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

day of their life, different situations, different mental capacity, different emotional state. They're never gonna be exactly the same at any different time. So just going, this is what I'm noticing. I'm noticing you've got some big emotions today. I'm noticing your energy seems pretty low today. I'm noticing you're finding X, Y, and Z tricky. On that day, I would not be pushing my kid to do anything. I'd be

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

oh, you are having a bit of a time. Normal everyday things that are often easy for you are tricky today. That's not a day that I'm going to give you gentle encouragement because I'm asking you to spend mental energy spoons that you just don't have. On a separate occasion that kid's had a great day and I'm like, Ooh, there's this opportunity this afternoon for blah. And they go, oh no, I don't think so. And I'm like, oh, you've had a great day. I can tell your brain has got quite a lot of flexibility in it in this moment.'cause I've just watched how you collaborated with your sibling and problem solving and really positive. Beautiful. What about if here's your opportunity, here's your gentle encouragement. If he says no, it's like fair enough. do, you know what I mean? It's just

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah.

Em:

some days that opportunity will be taken up

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah.

Em:

other days they might be going, no. And I think you don't wanna get stuck one way or the other. Being really one way or the other and going, I'm just gonna stay here, is not the way because your kid doesn't stay there.

Leisa Reichelt:

So you just really gotta observe the feedback that you're getting and adjust to that.

Em:

I would be asking them after the fact if you have encouraged them to have a go and they end up having a go check in after and go, you know, was that helpful that I, I told you you could do it and then I believed in you. Was that the, was that, the kind of belief that you needed from me in that moment. You're glad I did it. Great. I can do that again next time if you need. Some kids do need that champion And I'm gonna negate your, yourself doubt.'cause I know you need me to other kids and this is probably more where I would be, would be if I'm gonna tell you that I can't do this. I'm not comfortable doing this right now. Don't tell me I can. I have got a whole list of reasons why I can't, and they're pretty solid. And the bigger one is that I don't want to, right now

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm,

Em:

I don't want to show everybody in this room that I can't meet this expectation in front of them like everyone else.

Leisa Reichelt:

hmm.

Em:

I've had that happen and just have a go. And I did and it was horrifying.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah. Yeah.

Em:

that did not make me stronger. That just, it's a dreadful memory. So

Leisa Reichelt:

I was hoping that we might just be able to go down through some of those particular aspects of our Neurodiverse kids that make the having a go thing particularly tricky. And I think you did a really beautiful job of that in the drawings that you did.

Em:

So it's a pretty shortish resource with images made for parents, called Reasons Why Autistic Kids May Not Be Okay With Having A Go. So people say that knowledge is power, but for a lot of autistic kids, and neuro divergent kids, knowledge is comfort. We like predictability. We like to know all the facts before we can decide on our level of participation. I suppose. it's just getting our brain prepared. One of the most stressful things is being thrown in the deep end. That is something that a lot of adults consider to be a useful learning strategy to just plonk us in and let us flounder about and hopefully swim. That can be really traumatic for a lot of us. We prefer to know what the task is, what all the steps are, and we want to believe that we're gonna do a good job of following the steps, being able to meet the expectations, because why would I involve myself in something that I think I'm gonna do poorly. Which takes us to the next image, which says that many autistics are perfectionists. We often are expecting a hundred percent success from ourselves when we do something. a lot of that probably comes from trauma. in educational settings and, just the way we were raised and what beliefs and values we have absorbed from our families. A lot of us are kind of sitting in that perfectionist, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, masking state, and also fawning. So trying to people please, we've got those things that are very intertwined and basically mean that we're not comfortable making a mistake in front of a crowd.

Leisa Reichelt:

I was gonna say that really strong sense of being perceived all the time that you can't do something and not feel the gaze of other people upon you.

Em:

For sure. And you know, it's about perceived when our skill levels are fluctuating. For example, a lot of neurodivergent people are top of their field, right? A lot of the top of every field you are looking there, they're neuro neurodivergent people who've hyper-focused and worked really hard and gotten there, being perceived as obviously a part of that. But, it's, I have chosen to be perceived in this space because I have reason to believe I do a good job of it. This is why I'm gonna let everybody see my resources is because I have worked really hard that there are no mistakes in them. I'm not gonna make anybody mad. they're based on research, they're drawn well, I'm gonna put it out into the world because I'm reasonably confident that that's gonna be well received. and that's the only reason I'm doing it. And I'm not gonna put it out into the world if I don't think that. And it's the same with, having a go. I'm not gonna have a go unless I feel like it's gonna go well. I don't think that this gym class is gonna go well and I don't wanna perform this flip in front of people because I've never been able to do it before and now everyone's gonna watch. So the idea of doing something badly in front of people is enough to derail. It is big dysregulation. I've got big anxiety there already haven't even gone to the thing. And now I'm thinking this is what's going to happen and I'm basing that off all of my previous experiences that this adult who's telling me to have go doesn't know about. They don't know all the other times that I've been in a similar situation and it went badly. So they're telling me to have a go and I've got reasons to know it's not gonna go well. And it's not me being, I'm not catastrophizing, I'm just being realistic here because I've got this catalog of experiences. They get dismissed when it's coming from a kid. The says, nah, I know better. I'm an adult, you'll be fine. The next slide I sort of mentioned that it says many of us are logical and analytical. We're weighing up the facts, we're weighing up the risks. If I can't make all of those things stuck up in a favorable way to me getting this thing done, then I'm not gonna do it.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

It's not even that I wouldn't do it because I would've done it because I want to please my adults. I definitely would've done it. historically did go quite poorly. that is still a horrific memory in my mind to this day. I would have loved to able opt in or opt out of that particular that was supposed to just be fun. Wasn't fun, was traumatic. I knew it would be, and then it was. It's not, like what's that phrase where you are, saying it's going to go badly, so then it does go badly.

Leisa Reichelt:

Like a self-fulfilling prophecy

Em:

the

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

if it is based on my cataloging of my experiences, it's not an emotional thing. It's just a bunch of facts to my mind.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah.

Em:

so I think you are gonna know your kid. If you do have a kid who is pretty good at catastrophizing, then you going to have a think about those other sorts of things that we chatted about earlier. About how, what kind of support would you like from me in this moment, because you have been known to focus on this tiny little bit that went poorly, but the rest of it was so good. That might be the space that you're gonna work on with your kid.

Leisa Reichelt:

Oh, you're making me think of so many. Like, when I was a kid, I would do the thing where I'd go, okay, every logical thing tells me that this, you know, I'm not gonna turn up to gymnastics and suddenly be able to be graceful at walking on a balance beam or even staying on a balance beam.

Em:

I think for a lot of our kids as well, they often just need more time. So for example, you might have a kid who needs to watch something a few times, and if you were to plonk them into it at the beginning, have it go not especially well, then that gets written off in their mind.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

I won't do that. and that's not something I can overcome and I'll not be going back versus letting them approach it at their own pace and going, I'm not comfortable doing this, but I'm comfortable doing this much, I'm comfortable doing this much and building up those small wins, those small positive experiences and going, you let me know when you feel like you wanna give this a go, we can try and help, you know, and this is on your terms because you are the one in your brain, in your body right now. And I'm not, and I can tell you, Hey, I think you might be really good at that. But some kids will appreciate that and others won't. So just ask your kid how they feel when you say those sorts of things. Because if they're like, I actually love when you believe in me and say I can do it, great. I can do more of that. If they're like, it just makes me feel like you don't get it. You just think everything's easy. It's not easy for me. Fair enough. I didn't know. Now I know. Don't assume. That's what I think.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah.

Em:

The next page of this resource is talking about gestalt language. Vast majority, probably all of our autistic kiddos are GLPs Gestalt language processors. It's one of the two ways that people acquire and process, language process the world. It means that because, of sensory processing system, because of our cognitive processing system, the way that we learn, the way that we look back on our experiences, and our memories is this rich, sensory and emotional, kind of recap. So I've had this experience and I'm gonna log it away as a one sentence thing. I went to the beach and this happened. That's not what happens for us. We log it away as a movie with sounds, with smells, with feelings, with music, with who was there, what happened, how did I feel, what did the sand feel like? That's how the memory gets stored in our mind, and when we think about it, that's where we are again. I it means that if it was an upsetting memory, like going to the beach something bad happened and I got dragged under and there was a jellyfish. In my mind, when I think of the beach, that's where I go. That is what the beach is. It's this collection of feelings. It's this collection of interactions with these specific people. It can be a little bit hard to change that perception of that experience. It can also make it really tricky if that experience was beautiful then you go back a second time with your kid to the beach and they go, this is not the same as it was before. I don't feel the same. the weather's different, the water feels different. I don't feel as happy to be here, or it's not as good. And I've seen kids who just feel betrayed that was good that time, but now it isn't.

Leisa Reichelt:

I can really relate to that. I go back to the same holiday places'cause it was a really good holiday the first time. You're like, it was so great. It's gonna be amazing again. And then it's just not, you're like, how? What's happened?

Em:

yeah, because there's nothing the same in your mind. we don't stay the same. So, I suppose it's just useful for us to know and to talk about that kind of stuff with our kids It's definitely a tricky thing if your kid has gone, this is what it is and nothing can change it. it means there will be some processing and co-regulation needed. How does it relate to having a go? It means that if I have had this situation before where I did try this thing, it didn't go well. That is 100% what's gonna happen again. So why would I try it again? I've done it before, it didn't work. This is my experience. it's not that we are intentionally being stubborn or difficult, it's that the way that my brain has processed that previous experience, the way it is lodged in there, at this point I can't be flexible with it. That's just how it is.

Leisa Reichelt:

It feels like there might be quite a connect direction between that kind of memory and the nervous system experience as well.

Em:

Of course.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah.

Em:

And, the intensity our nervous systems are often, responding to the world around us.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

yeah, I think a lot of adults don't have it in the front of their mind. We hear that word, you know, overreacting. Like you're just overreacting. Like this drama queen. This isn't a big deal. My brain is just reacting to all the things here and I can't control the intensity and I'm processing it. This is just how it is. And it's pretty rough for me. Sorry. It's rough for you.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah. That's helpful to understand all the different aspects of what's happening in a kid's mind when they're being confronted with this, have a go situation. They're looking at I don't really know what's gonna happen. I need more time to think about it. I need to understand the likelihood of success. and, you know, how does this relate to experiences that I've had in the past? All of those things impact how people respond when they're asked to give something a go.

Em:

Think adults are not good at validating the experiences of kids. The emotions of kids. We go, yeah, that's what you've got but I think I'm right here, so I'm going to decide this.

Leisa Reichelt:

hmm.

Em:

oh, I can see that there's something getting in the way right now from making this participation feel safe for you or feel like it's gonna be okay. Let me take a step back and wonder what's causing it. How can I support you right now so that this isn't a traumatic experience and that's all. And it's not even, how can I get you to do the thing right now? It's just can I support you right now to feel good about not doing it? Because you've got those other kids as well who I have seen go, I really want to, but I'm scared and I don't like, I, I can't. I really want to, but I can't. And who are completely overwhelmed by the situation, but they feel the pressure of needing to, feeling like they should, feeling I'm gonna let people down, but I just can't bring myself to feel safe about this right now. In that situation, the adult going, its really brave of you right now to say, I don't feel safe about this right now. I'm not ready to try this thing today. It doesn't feel safe in my body. That's me looking after myself, and that is the side that the adult should be taking in that situation versus going, you want it, but you're scared. I'm gonna get you there in this distressed state. Yay. Then you did it. And look how distressed you are. why are people going? That's a reasonable outcome there.

Leisa Reichelt:

Because a lot of professionals are telling them that's what they should do, specifically in the context of kids who are having this experience and thinking about attending school. Like what you just described is such a dynamic that so many parents who are listening will be very familiar with right? Where the kids are, like, I wanna be at school, I don't wanna be at home. I wanna be at school, but I just can't. And a lot of the advice that you're given is just get them here and then, you know, we'll look after them, be fine from now. You know, just push through it. Just, do it an hour a day or this amount of time.

Em:

Whenever I talk about this, there's people going, you're letting your kids just not just never do any, your kids will just never do anything. if you don't push them, they'll never do anything. And I don't think any kid is neurologically wired to not do things. Kids are curious, kids are are built

Leisa Reichelt:

to

Em:

learn. Kids are built to wanna, you know, to play, to learn, to do all the things. And if they're not doing that, I'm going, what is getting in the way? How burnt out are they that they physically can't do anything? They just need that safety of home and the routine, the predictability. But in terms of people saying, you know, you have to push your kids to get past their fear. I had a psychologist point out, you know, the fear is when you talk desensitisation to fear, its supposed to be about unsubstantiated fear. this is an illogical fear. You don't have anything to fear. So we are going to work on desensitizing you. That's one of the things I've heard that isn't even what's happening with school.'cause it is a well-founded fear. They have reason, lot reasons to be scared of, of being there. If they go there and it's traumatic and they are put into this prolonged state of dysregulation, day in, day out, adults who don't understand. Expectations they can't meet, consequences, stress, anxiety, masking, they're not overreacting to that, they're just reacting and it's kind of like a minefield. So I think, I've had kids at school, now they are all at home. Been there and done that. So if you're in a position where you're going, I can get my kid to school. They are there most of the time, and I'm watching their wellbeing decline. I don't know why anyone is willing to pay that.

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

That's very off the mark with what I'm hoping for my kids. You know?

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

do know that a lot of people are not in the position to pull their kids out of school because they need to be at work. So we do continue to try and help school become as safe as we can for our kids. But I suppose just listen to your instincts about it and if you've got professionals saying They'll get used to it. They'll get used to it. is it that they get used to it or is it that they just get too broken to be loud?

Leisa Reichelt:

In your resource, you talk about ableism, and the effect of ableism on adults making these demands of kids. Can you explain that to folks who may not be familiar with the term? What does it mean and how does it show up and how is it relevant to having a go?

Em:

ableism is a form of bias where being disabled, having a disability is considered inferior. Less good, less desirable, less preferable, than somebody who is not disabled and does not have a disability. if we're describing something as being ableist, basically something that is dismissing, invalidating disabled experiences. In terms of having a go, in my mind, ableism would be an adult dismissing a neurodivergent kid's previous experiences, a little bit like, That wasn't bad. It was fine. You shouldn't have been upset. Nothing was wrong. This was a really good thing. You should be feeling really good about it. Incredibly dismissive of all the feelings that that kid's got happening in their body and in their brain. Um, it would be invalidating or dismissing a neurodivergent kid's fluctuating capacity. So your kid is gonna have different amounts of mental battery each day, each time at any given point. And when they are really low on mental battery, doing the things, having a go, trying that hard thing, finishing that task, following that rule, meeting that expectation is not necessarily gonna be something that they can do. Understanding that about our kids and going. I can see today, this just doesn't feel like a safe thing for you. Today, oh, we seem to have, be able to get on top of that today. So an ableist approach and that would just be, well, I saw you do it before, so today I expect you to do it again. So that's something we unfortunately hear a lot. That's, unintentional well-meaning for sure ableism.

Leisa Reichelt:

Yeah, it's, also about the way that when we're talking about the kid at the prize giving ceremony, the adult has made an assessment of safety and gone, this is safe, you'll be fine. And they're imposing their assessment of safety onto the child rather than accepting the child's assessment of how safe they're feeling.

Em:

As well as their assessment of fun.

Leisa Reichelt:

Something that I've really observed is that your own neurodivergence doesn't necessarily inoculate you from being ableist when it comes to your kid.

Em:

Not at all.

Leisa Reichelt:

For me, I was like, well, I have a neurodivergent experience, so therefore I surely I'm coming at this from a place of a neurodivergent assessment of things. But then, my life and how I was socialized is not necessarily comparable to what my kids are experiencing.

Em:

Yeah. And we, you know, for especially of us who were late identified, lived this life absorbing all the stuff that we were told. Anybody my age It wasn't an affirming space to be brought up in. So there's a very good chance that we've got ableist beliefs in there, then when we recognize our own neurodivergence, the ableism is still there, it's about ourselves. for example, me being not very good at, respecting my own fluctuating capacity, I do not do a good job of that. There's a lot of, I should be able to, I should be able to,

Leisa Reichelt:

Hmm.

Em:

I should not have to have breaks. I should not have to X, Y, Z, I shouldn't need this support. And, and that's all things that I have learned from a very young age. So it's just something that we need to make conscious, I suppose, and go, Am I kind of just wired to wanna say, and let me think about it for a sec and decide if that's thing for my kid to hear right now.

Leisa Reichelt:

it just circles back to the theme you keep returning to, which is listen to your kid, ask them questions, take what they're telling you seriously.

Em:

I think it's listening more to them and less to people who've never met them who don't live that life as well.

Leisa Reichelt:

I love it. That is very good. I think we are probably at time, Thank you so much for spending time with us today. If folks want to find more resources from you where's the best place for us to find out more?

Em:

Everything that I make gets put on Facebook. You can search, NeuroWild on Facebook. I am on Instagram too, but if you're looking for resources to download PDFs to print off or send, they're all on Teachers Pay Teachers, which is a website you can register for a free non teacher account. I do have a lot of free resources on there, and you can find me on there.

Leisa Reichelt:

Amazing. Fantastic. Well, I'm sure lots of people will be rushing there to find those resources to share with educators in their lives. Thanks, Em. Really, really appreciate your time.

Em:

Thanks for having me.

Leisa Reichelt:

Well, I feel like there were so many nuggets of insight in that conversation with Em. I hope you enjoyed it and had a few of your own light bulb moments as well. I've popped some links to all of Em's resources in the episode notes, along with links to School Can't Australia, of course. If you have found this podcast helpful, please do take a moment to subscribe, give us a rating or a review. These things really do help us to get the podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and who haven't found our community and all the information and support that we share. If you have some feedback for us or a suggestion for a future topic or guest, or perhaps you've been inspired to share your own lived experience story, please drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Victorian parents, unfortunately, you'll be only able to do this until the 31st of October when the Victorian government is choosing to shut down their Parent Line, which is very disappointing. I put a link to a petition you can sign to protest this in the episode notes if you are so inclined. Thanks again for listening. We'll talk again soon. Take care.