#35 - Unschooling Ourselves with Esther Jones

In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by Esther Jones, a UK-based parent and unschooling advocate and author of The Parent's Handbook to Unschooling Yourself. 

Esther shares her personal journey of unschooling her three children and the principles behind the philosophy. We explore how parents can inadvertently present the biggest challenges to unschooling success,  the importance of self-compassion, and how to foster an individualised, supportive and engaging learning environment. 

Discover practical advice and insights on transitioning from traditional schooling to an unschooling approach, and learn about the significance of building a positive relationship with your child. 

00:00 Welcome

01:05 Meet Esther Jones: A Journey to Unschooling

03:22 Defining Unschooling: A Philosophical Approach

05:32 The Challenges and Benefits of Unschooling

08:15 Navigating Parental Fears and Triggers

10:45 Embracing Enoughness and Connection

18:49 The Role of Curiosity and Natural Learning

23:52 Mindfulness in Action

24:24 Learning Through Conversations

27:50 Navigating Triggers and Self-Compassion

30:14 The Role of the Parent in Unschooling

36:10 Transitioning from School to Unschooling

42:52 Wrapping Up and Resources

Recommended Resources

• Esther Jones’ Website - https://www.esther-jones.com/
• Save Victorian Parent Helpline Petition: https://www.megaphone.org.au/petitions/save-parentline

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. If you are home educating or suspect that might potentially be in your future, you are going to love this episode. We are joined by Esther Jones, a UK based parent who has unschooled her own children and now supports parents around the world with their own unschooling experiences through courses, her podcast, and a new book called The Parents' Guide to Unschooling Yourself. Esther really helps us understand how we as adults play a really crucial role in our young people's journey and how our mindset and our wellness is critical to their success. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Alright, Esther Jones, thank you so much for joining us for our podcast today.

Esther Jones: 1:10

Thank you for inviting me.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:11

I was very excited to have the opportunity to have a bit of a read through your book, and found it so, thought provoking and so helpful, certainly for the journey that I'm on. So I'm really looking forward to talking to you more about that now. But before we get into that, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, Esther, and your journey that you've been on.

Esther Jones: 1:33

I have three children. They're 19, 17, and 13. We live in the UK now, but we lived in Spain until about six years ago, just before the pandemic. Our journey to unschooling. I had always imagined we'd do school. I had never thought about anything else, I realized when my eldest son, who was later diagnosed autistic, PDA, when he was very young, I realized that mainstream wasn't going to be a good fit. He, you know, rhythm of his own drum. He just, wouldn't take direction. He just needed to do it his own way. He was frequently overwhelmed by lots of people. And so, he and his younger brother went to a very gentle preschool, which was lovely for them. That worked really well. And then when he reached age six, they went to a very alternative school. And, we did that for a few years, but it just never worked. It just was still too much. It was overwhelming. It was, you know, and I could never really work out what was wrong. And so finally we just said, ah, let's just try and do something different. Or I think, I thought I'd find the perfect school. We'll take them out. And so for about a year or so, it's like, there is somewhere, I know there's somewhere that will work for us. And of course there wasn't, right? But after a year I thought, oh, actually. Hmm, this works. This is okay. And by that time, I'd come across the word unschooling. So I thought there's a word for this. This isn't something I've invented. It's a thing. And so then I started to learn more and appreciate more and to see more. and then my daughter who's now 13, never went to school'cause that was when she was just preschool age. So that's how we ended up here.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:07

That's fantastic. So the book you've written is about unschooling, but it's a handbook for parents to think about how to unschool themselves, Or deschool themselves?

Esther Jones: 3:19

We could use either word.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:21

Yeah. Why don't we start with some definitions, like when you're talking about unschooling, What do you mean by that?

Esther Jones: 3:29

In the broadest terms, we could talk about it being about our children being self-directed in their education. However, I think any parent who even just dips a toe in here goes, oh, hang on a moment. This is so much more than education. Learning is a part of it. If we just go back for a moment, it's really based on the premise that all human beings, we're born to learn. We're born to feel self-actualized. We're born to lead meaningful lives. We are each unique. We've got a different way of being in the world. Unschooling is saying, okay. Who's my child? I want to discover my child. I'm not gonna tell my child how to be, I don't want them to seek approval. I want them to be the person that they're here to be. And so what can that look like? So that's really the starting point of it. It's not where most people start, it's not where we started. But that really is the premise of it. Can we accompany our children in a way that they have agency, that they can learn what it means to be themselves? What does it look like to move through the world, to navigate life in a way that's meaningful for them, in a way that keeps them safe, in a way that keeps them aligned with who they are. So that's kind of my broadest definition of what unschooling is.

Leisa Reichelt: 4:40

And so it's basically like a philosophical approach to home education. Is that how you might characterize

Esther Jones: 4:47

I put it in the book actually, that my son, my middle son, I once said, what do you think of the word unschooling? He said. Should I just call it living? Really? Oh, you're so right. And that's kind of the key really, how can we live all together in this community that is our family and in the wider community in a way that we are learning as we go. So yes, it is an alternative. I guess you could call it a philosophy. It's quite an intentional way of life. So sort of living intentionally, I would call it.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:16

I think you hinted before at the idea that there are some people who come to home education and unschooling because they have a philosophy, a belief in a way of life that they

Esther Jones: 5:29

mm,

Leisa Reichelt: 5:29

are choosing for themselves and for their families. Most of the people who are listening to this will come to it through trauma.

Esther Jones: 5:38

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:38

come

Esther Jones: 5:39

Absolutely.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:39

through trying to make school work, failing to make school work. And then, you know, so many people have said, I didn't choose home education. It was like the absolute last resort. Part of my journey then was to come to discover unschooling and go, well actually, maybe there is a lot of good in this approach. Tell us a little bit about why would we do this? What's the benefits of this approach?

Esther Jones: 6:04

Well, I love how you've just described that. I think that's such a common thread. It was certainly mine. The way that it unfolded for me, and I'm gonna say the vast majority of parents I work with have neurodivergent children or children who simply can't do school. It's too much for them. They're anxious, they're in burnout. for whatever reason, this parent has had to go, hang on a minute. We've got to find something else for their mental health. For our mental health. And so as you say, you've had to go, okay, help. Here we are at home. Now what do we do? Then eventually there's that, oh, okay, maybe this can work for us. That's generally the journey that people make. And they do come at it with a lot of trauma. But there's something really interesting in this, I think you've spoken to Naomi Fisher, right? So she talks about the canary in the coal mine. These children who cannot do school, being the ones putting their hand up and going. This doesn't work. This is not a good system for children. Generally speaking. Some children may thrive, but for many children, it's not a great system. And so these children who absolutely cannot do it, force us into a space and they force us to be courageous, more open-minded to think about things we would never have thought about otherwise. And so we're put into this horribly uncomfortable place that can feel terrible at the beginning and absolutely filled with trauma and a sense of who we are as a parent, and that doesn't feel good, and our child who seems to be failing and all these things. Right? But then when we say, okay, here we are, and that's our story so far, if we're able to say, what do we want our story to be going forward? What can this be? I think that's when we go, ah, hang on a minute. Yes, I can see some value here. And then as we start to walk that path, that's when it really opens up and our learning and our growth is incredible if we're open to it. If we're open to seeing our child and allowing our child to challenge all of our assumptions about so many things, But we have to kind of allow that

Leisa Reichelt: 8:11

In the introduction to the book, you say children are rarely the stumbling block to learning out of school. The challenges that arise are far more likely to be all about the parents, and I have to say that has also been my lived experience.

Esther Jones: 8:26

Mine too.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:27

Why is this so challenging for us? Where are these challenges coming from?

Esther Jones: 8:32

Gosh. They come from so many places and so much of it's so unexpected. I think that's what bowled me over. I couldn't begin to know beforehand what would trigger me. And so there's so many things. Firstly, perhaps is that sense of isolation, not belonging. It's very unusual for a human being to say, I'm gonna step away from what everyone else is doing and do something entirely new that I don't know what it will look like. It can feel lonely, it can feel isolating. So there's all of that part to it that you have to somehow get comfortable with or find your community. There is the, what learning should look like. We've got a very, very fixed idea of learning. And it looks like this and we expect to see it in action. We expect to see some kind of output. Of course, it doesn't really look like that. That's not what natural learning looks like, so that can feel very scary. For our whole lives we've been taught to understand that a child must do A, B, C, D, it must go through this system to have a successful life. A good parent will make that happen for their child. There's so much to unpick. What is success? What's a good life, what's a good parent? Am my bad parent now because I'm not making that happen? Will my child be angry with me in the future for not making them do things, you know, like. So those are just a few of the things. We've also been taught that certain things are good and certain things are bad. Screens are bad. That's a huge trigger for many people. Getting out, fresh air all the time, playing outside, that's quite good. Your child may not want to, if they're having burnout from school, you may have a child in a dark room for a while. I've worked with many parents who that's their reality. We have this, how we think it should be, how we want it to be, how we expect it to be versus how it is. And that's our challenge and how we feel about it. Those are very big challenges to work through. They're big emotions to work through.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:32

For people who are less familiar with unschooling, you said this is how it is,

Esther Jones: 10:38

Mm,

Leisa Reichelt: 10:38

is it, how is it most of the time, what is it like to,

Esther Jones: 10:42

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:42

to have an unschooling

Esther Jones: 10:45

Yeah, well, mine are older now, and I have to say there's so much sense of ease and connection When they're younger, it's different because you are required to really be on hand a lot. But how does it feel? I think when you find that sweet spot, first of all, it's all relationship based. The most important thing in all of us is our connection with our child and our coming to meet our child where they are. It's a real under looking for that understanding with our child. Early on, what I found was life just slowed down when we were all at home. Sometimes it felt, even when they were young, like a kind of lovely coworking space. I'm getting on with my thing. They're getting on with their thing. We were all happy and just checking in with each other. I found there was a gentleness about it, even when there would be sibling arguments and moments where I'd get triggered, When you are able to sit in the space without society's expectations, on you, it feels spacious. It feels very spacious to just be with your children and say, Hey, you know what? What we're doing is enough. And I think that was a thing that really bowled me over. Just that sense of sometimes it being very, very quiet in the house. And, no one feeling that they had to do anything more than they were doing. But what they were doing was enough. So a sense of enoughness, that might be a nice way of putting it because we all suffer from not being enough. That's a classic. So this sense of here we all are together, just getting on with what we're getting on with. Now every house is gonna be different, every child's gonna be different. Your child may require you to be quite hands-on. Your child may get on with their stuff all by themselves. Your child may love to go to lots of activities and want to be out and about all day with other children. Or you may have a child who appreciates their time by themselves at home. And again, none of those are right or wrong, but what's the need of my child? What are my needs and how can we work together here? So there's a sense of allyship. Rather than, I'm the person trying to make this work. I'm the one in charge and the day has to look like I want it to look, or it won't have been a successful day. Right. And that's quite hard to get outta that as a parent.

Leisa Reichelt: 12:57

I wish I could say I was out of it. I'm definitely not. you used the word enough

Esther Jones: 13:01

mm.

Leisa Reichelt: 13:02

That's what I'm thinking about all the time. Right? My son had quite a lot of burnout. I'm starting to see little green shoots that maybe we might be heading in the right direction away from burnout now, which is amazing. But I'm constantly challenging myself on, is he doing enough? Should I be encouraging him to do more? Because he's still very much in the spending lots of quality time with Geometry Dash, which is not actually maths. You say in the book, that a lot of the time, you can feel neglectful. I do.

Esther Jones: 13:33

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 13:34

How do we settle away from that? How do you develop a confidence in enoughness?

Esther Jones: 13:42

Yeah, I think that unschooling and deschooling, they help us get away from that'got to be doing', we've all got to be doing. And first of all, it takes us back to how are we? And I think the most important question is not how is my child doing, but how are they? Learning only really takes place when our nervous system is relaxed. I talk about in the book, that learning state of mind. We're relaxed, we're curious, we're open. We feel connected to whoever we're with. We feel appreciated. We don't feel judged. That frame of mind that child can tap into, even if they're gaming, whatever they're doing, they're just sort of, they're expansive, they're open. And so what do we do? Can we help our child find their space, be in the best space possible for whatever needs to emerge to emerge. Our job becomes less about making things happen and holding them in this space, where we are curious about them, we're curious about ourselves. I had a lovely example from a woman. who just did my course and as we were going through the weeks, everyone practicing these new tools and strategies at home, she had found with her son that she found it highly triggering that her son was on his computer so much gaming. And so she couldn't help but walk into the room with this sort of heaviness about her and her tone of voice it always ended up in conflict. And unhappiness. She learned how to check herself at the door. Like, so if we can understand what are we bringing to this? Am I bringing to this situation the sense that I'm a terrible parent, I'm neglectful that you'll never get a job. That if I'm coming to talk to my child with that huge backpack of weighty problems, we can pretty much guarantee that that's not gonna be a great conversation.

Leisa Reichelt: 15:31

Hmm.

Esther Jones: 15:31

So she was able to check herself at the door and just firstly appreciate that actually this child had been in burnout, was happy, he was relaxed, and she could see that in him

Leisa Reichelt: 15:43

Hmm.

Esther Jones: 15:43

and she was able to appreciate that. And then rather than coming in and sort of sighing or whatever she used to do, she was able to come in and say, well, that looks like fun. what are you doing? And he went, oh. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he pulled up a chair for her and she sat down with him and they had an hour together where he explained all the things he was doing, she had no idea about. He was delighted'cause she was interested in his passion. And then they moved away and went to get dinner together in the kitchen. Can we come into where they are rather than creating that resistance? Can we meet them where they are? Can we be curious and say, my child's chosen to do something that I can't see the value in, but my child's chosen it for some reason, that to them is valid. I wonder what that reason is. And it could be that they're connecting with people. It could be that they're loving getting really good at something, or it could be that they're bored. It could be that they're lonely. We can't possibly know unless we go in. But the worst thing we do is go, well that's a terrible waste of time. I'm a good parent. I'm gonna stop that immediately,'cause we don't know their lived experience.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:56

Yeah.

Esther Jones: 16:57

so it's meeting them in that space.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:00

one of the things that has worked well for me as long as I keep remembering to try to do it, is to take the value judgment out of gaming and sitting in front of your computer. I've started to, to my son when he's playing on his games, going, what are you working on? What are you working on at the moment? And like treating it as though it's work. And he's like, oh, well actually I'm trying to achieve this in this amount of time

Esther Jones: 17:21

Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:21

he's got little projects that he's working on and he's setting himself goals and applying himself in a very, structured way to achieving these goals.

Esther Jones: 17:30

Right.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:31

good learning for the future.

Esther Jones: 17:33

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we all wanna be good at things and that way that he's managing that is something that he'll apply to other things. And he's learning how he works. What kind of goal does he need to motivate him? When is it too high? When is it too low? How can he work through his frustration? What does that look like? I mean, these are tools for life. We're taught that content is everything, and it really isn't,

Leisa Reichelt: 17:54

Hmm.

Esther Jones: 17:55

We all could pick up content when we need it. And as our children get old and they say, okay, I wanna specialize in this and I wanna go in that direction, they will certainly be acquiring content, there's no doubt whatsoever. But we kind of overvalue that, over perhaps their self knowledge and how they work.

Leisa Reichelt: 18:14

Where I live in my part of Australia, there's quite a robust curriculum requirement from the government that we need to demonstrate. There's a tension between that and unschooling. And they're really big on Shakespeare and so I have to, by the end of the year, demonstrate that my son has engaged or he is been given opportunities to engage with Shakespeare. When I see him on his Geometry Dash trying and trying to achieve this goal, I'm like, that is better life skills than Romeo and Juliet, like, let's be real. So that difference between the skills and the content is really an interesting way to think about it.

Esther Jones: 18:49

So something that's always blown my mind about these guys is the breadth of their learning and this way that things come in and they'll gather anything in, if it's interesting. And through that they've acquired a vast general knowledge. My two older ones in particular, by the age of eight or nine, they were both, I mean, their history is just, off the charts because that's what they're interested in. it's that curiosity is, I found it amazing to see that curiosity and how it unfolds.

Leisa Reichelt: 19:18

Yeah. it certainly is beautiful when you start to see that natural learning and that,

Esther Jones: 19:23

Mm,

Leisa Reichelt: 19:24

engagement and that curiosity kind of spark back is, it is beautiful. That said, it doesn't stop the triggers from triggering and,

Esther Jones: 19:33

no, it doesn't.

Leisa Reichelt: 19:34

anxiety and the, you know, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing it the right way to kind of keep coming back and back and back? You write about those things that are really common triggers for parents. Can you talk us through what some of those are and how they're experienced?

Esther Jones: 19:50

Yeah, so I think that a lot of it is fear-based. We're just worried about it not being how it needs to be. We're worried about doing a terrible job, and so we tend to have the fear, and we will have the reaction right. And often the reaction may feel quite benign. It may even look like good parenting, right? Where we go, right, that's it. You've been there for two hours. Time to come off. And we, we kind of ticked a box of our good parent when we do that, even if we've ended up in conflict with our child. Or we try to sneak learning in. And we're like, okay, we're gonna bake, but I'm gonna make him calculate this, from metric into Imperial and then I'm gonna make him measure it. And, and we kind of end up kind of creating this and we sort of suck the joy out of everything'cause we're so worried rather than just having a lovely time baking or, or whatever. And so our anxiety and our stress tends to just sort of come into this space. So I always think of it and I think it's helpful to think of it as us holding a space for our child not going, okay, do whatever you like, but holding this space where they can feel their connection to us. And where we are, they're kind of ally in it. And I think it's good to think, what am I bringing into the space? So when we're bringing these fears in, it's very hard for us not to then project that onto our child. So our child, they need to see that we are confident in them. We trust them, we believe in them. You know, like we, all of these wonderful things. But what do they see when they look at, as they see a sort of anxious, worried mom or dad, a bit concerned, nervous because we're trying so hard to get it right, we end up sort of sabotaging that very space that we're trying to hold. It can be the tiniest things. I find it remarkable. Everything would be going fine. And then I would suddenly think, well, I wonder what someone else would think about this.

Leisa Reichelt: 21:35

Oh

Esther Jones: 21:35

And then I'd feel my heart go. I go, oh my God. Oh my goodness. No one's learned anything all day, no one's done anything, but we haven't done anything. You know, so it would all be lovely until I, that for me was a particular one.'cause I was, was, was a, I think at school I was an approval seeker. It's been a very big piece of learning for me that if I'm gonna advocate for my children, and I want my children to be their full selves, I have to hold that, not necessarily getting approval from certain people. That's gonna be the nature of the beast, and I have to learn to be with that rather than feeling the trigger reacting. Requiring my children to do something to soothe my fear, which is kind of what we're doing, even though we don't feel like it, we kind of want our children to, okay, do some maths or do some English, or make this look like learning so that I feel better

Leisa Reichelt: 22:29

Proof of learning,

Esther Jones: 22:30

proof of learning.

Leisa Reichelt: 22:31

Something that I've struggled with along the way as well is because it is quite freeform and again, like we're in the early stages, so we're

Esther Jones: 22:39

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 22:40

I'm looking for hints of learning more

Esther Jones: 22:42

Right.

Leisa Reichelt: 22:42

I would love my son to be deeply into his history. We're not there yet. I feel like I am constantly trying to look for ways that I can prove to myself and that I could prove to somebody else that learning is happening.

Esther Jones: 22:55

Well, I think it's good to be open to the idea that it can look like many things. And so what I do encourage is note it down at the end of the day, not just the learning, but the thing that felt good, that he was super happy today. That he came down to make himself a sandwich. That we sat and had a cup of tea together, that he shared what he's doing, that he told me about a worry he has. And then also noticing what are the conversations we're having, what things pop up. Often it might be things about a business they wanna make or some travel or something about the future, or just some deep dive into some aspect of their game. And so many people, and it's definitely been my experience talked about how conversation, just conversation, just talking and ends up being the vehicle for connection, for learning about each other. so see if you can see what is there. Because oftentimes what we are doing when we're fear-based we're saying, well, this isn't here and this isn't here. And so we can't see what is here. that's such a shame because what is here is doubtless very rich in some way. But because we are looking somewhere else and for other things we panic and we can't see what we've got. So we stopped seeing that.

Leisa Reichelt: 24:08

Yeah, and you described it as mindfulness in action, which I thought was really useful just in terms of watching for your own triggers as well as noticing the learning and being in the moment, not trying to

Esther Jones: 24:20

Right,

Leisa Reichelt: 24:21

shape it too much, and that really resonated with me. The main thing that we do for learning is conversations. That's how I feel learning happening. We started having conversations about American politics recently. I never thought he'd be the slightest bit interested in that. It's possible I'm foisting my own special interest onto him accidentally. But it started from Roblox actually.'cause there's some legal action happening with Roblox. And so he is like, oh, there's however many states suing Roblox. And I'm like, I wonder if they're Democratic or Republican states. And he was like, I don't even know what that means. What does that mean? And so that just opened up lots. So, and here we came back another time. So I've been looking into this and this is what I've discovered. I'm like, huh,

Esther Jones: 24:58

I love that'cause that's often how it goes. There's often a little conversation and there's another one that brings in a little bit of that one and then someone else joins the conversation, brings in something else and it's just, yeah, it's so rich and it can absolutely come from Roblox

Leisa Reichelt: 25:12

Mm-hmm.

Esther Jones: 25:13

That was the thing that I was so amazed by when we started, was a day of"nothing" in inverted commas, led to so much. It was almost as though the ideas were kind of percolating all day and everyone was thinking or doing or whatever, and I maybe couldn't see anything today, but tomorrow the ideas and the things that come up, because they had space, they had space. I always found that fascinating.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:39

My son's quite a slow, uh, he needs more time for processing things

Esther Jones: 25:43

right.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:44

You don't get that in school. It's all like, boom,

Esther Jones: 25:46

No.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:46

boom, boom. But in this way of working, we can have a little conversation. It can sit for a couple of days and then he'll come back in a really thoughtful way.

Esther Jones: 25:54

Mm.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:55

to learn to not do that thing that you said, which is go, oh, well why don't we sit down and have a look at a map of America and see which states are which, because like that, he'll just go, I'm not gonna talk about that with mom anymore'cause now she's gonna turn it into an activity.

Esther Jones: 26:08

I love that. Yes. We've all done that. We grab it and go, oh, here we go.

Leisa Reichelt: 26:12

I thought that was my job, right? I thought that was my job, was to go, oh, he is interested in something, so how can I extend this?

Esther Jones: 26:19

Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 26:20

doesn't work for us.

Esther Jones: 26:22

and sometimes it might be, but that's the tricky thing of this. Sometimes you might, Hey, you know what? And they'll go, oh, that's a good idea. But I think this is where it's so nuanced and this is where we're sort of working out what's the thing here that would be welcome? And what's the thing here that creates resistance? And oftentimes we can tell because of how we are bringing it. If I'm bringing my idea of getting the map out, because I think that is how it could look and that would feel good to me, then he's probably gonna be resistant to the map now if I can see that oh, he might love the idea of a map. He might really enjoy that. I'll let him know about that. The idea will sound different to the child as well. They can tell when we're joining their flow or when we're kind of dumping something on them.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:14

I use, I wonder a lot more now. I wonder if it's this or that. I I wonder about that. So you just sort of plant the seed of the idea of the question that might not even, they might not be aware that that is a possible question and then he follows it or he doesn't follow it. The map thing is interesting though, right? Because for me it's like, ooh, my, in the back of my mind, I'm going, I can map this to geography. Now if I can just get a map out. I can make this sound we've done some geography stuff and put that in the report and that will be really helpful, but every time I try to do that, it shuts things down. So I've just had to step back and trust the process.

Esther Jones: 27:49

Yeah. there's a lot of trust involved. And coming back to those triggers, in the book I described this process of being able to pause. Noticing our own trigger, noticing when we are about to say something or do something that may not be helpful to the situation. just because we can't quite help ourselves, We spent all these decades being like that, thinking like that. Can we unravel that? Can we undo that? Noticing ourselves in our bodies, how we are. Are we tense? Are we triggered? Do we feel angry? Do we feel frustrated? And if we've got anything like that going on. Can we stop? Can we give ourselves a moment to just be with that and recognize that, and be kind to that, bring some self-compassion and say, can we calm our nervous system and then engage with our child? because then that engagement is gonna come from an entirely different place. And we can be curious again. Because when we are triggered, we go into a kind of a tunnel vision. All we wanna do is solve it, and we generally know exactly how we want to solve it, right? We know exactly what has to happen and how it has to look. Our job really, as we deschool, is to keep seeing kind of open that space up again.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:02

Hmm.

Esther Jones: 29:02

Here I am in tunnel vision. Can I widen my perspective? Can I see what's actually happening here? Can I hear them? Can I invite their voice in? Can I get curious? And that, although it's really difficult, really challenging is the rich part. I always say nothing is ever wrong, actually. If we can be curious about it, nothing's ever wrong. It's only something to be curious about. Something that gives us more information, something that allows us to connect more deeply. Even a really hard moments. What's in it? What am I learning here? What's the connection here? And allowing ourselves to feel bad as well. That when it's hard, allowing that difficult, it's really hard work, you know? I don't think any of us were really meant to do this alone. It's also hard because ideally we would have more community around us. And particularly if you have a child who's in burnout, who's anxious, they're probably not open to being out in community. That can be very isolating. So there are things about this that make it objectively hard. And so recognizing that is helpful as well. Making sure that you are super resourced, like what you need is so important in all of this. For me unschooling is really about how do we live as humans? How do we thrive as humans, as our whole selves, our unique people? Well, we are whole selves too, so we are also there. We're part of our little family community, so our needs matter too. And how do we bring them in and how do we honor them? I think that's a big part of it.

Leisa Reichelt: 30:33

I imagine that there are a lot of people who are listening to this, who feel such a long, long, long way from having their needs met. There are a lot of folk who are really stretched to the absolute limit of what they can cope with at the minute. So that sounds like such a unimaginable luxury.

Esther Jones: 30:56

Absolutely. I would just say one thing to those people, which is that recognizing that you have needs and your needs are valid, even if in that moment in time it appears to be, there was nothing you can do. Being kind to your own needs rather than telling yourself you're doing a bad job and you should be doing it better is already a helpful step forward. Even if that's just a calming touch, saying a little mantra, you're doing the best you can. You're doing the best you can, Be kind to yourselves within all of this, and I think that's something we neglect often.

Leisa Reichelt: 31:29

You have a whole chapter in the book, about self-compassion, which I thought was really helpful. The link that you made between self-compassion and your own nervous system I thought was particularly interesting'cause we talk about co-regulation and the importance of our child's nervous system and the relationship between their nervous system and our nervous system as being such an important thing. I'd never read about this link between self-compassion and our own nervous system regulation. Can you talk about that a little bit

Esther Jones: 32:02

Sure. Well, first of all, how you are as a parent is the most important thing for your child, I believe that if you had to focus all day tomorrow only on yourself or as much on yourself as possible and neglect quite a lot of things you do around the house you'd be doing everyone a big favor. The way we are is so important for our children, and it's so normal that we become dysregulated when our child's dysregulated.'cause that's how nervous systems work. A dysregulated nervous system will set us on edge. Now if we get set on edge, and that then triggers deeper thoughts of our own. Like, here I go again. I'm doing it wrong. Everyone must think I'm a failure. What would my mom think of this? Imagine if the teacher at school saw me now. all of these awful thoughts and I think, what would you say to your friend? If it was your friend, would you say that to them? No. What would you do to it for a friend? Can you do that for yourself? Because when it's a friend in that situation, We explain that, It's not your fault at all. You're doing a wonderful job. You're doing the best you can. We say that to help them soothe their nervous system. Now, if we can bring self-compassion to ourselves. We can help our nervous system come down. when we're telling ourselves we're doing a bad job we are ramping it up and making it even harder for ourselves, and for our child. One of the biggest tools I learned, was at a time when, my child would become very dysregulated when he was distressed. It was incredibly challenging. I'm sure there's people listening who have this situation. I think it's more common than we think. People don't talk about it so much, but we'd have these terrible meltdowns, which could be quite scary. I learned that simple technique of bringing my hand to my heart and saying, this is all gonna land okay, it's gonna land okay. Or it's okay. It's okay. And I would just bring my hand to my chest, to my heart. it sounds so gentle, so soft, but it was so impactful for me. Because it reminded me that this is hard. This is parenting to a power of a thousand. Most people don't ever have to do this. This is very difficult and I found that it was so helpful to me, As my nervous system came down, his would come down. And over time we found a way to navigate those moments. And then those moments really stopped happening because there was enough space the space became much easier. and so yeah, it's part of co-regulation. It's also just part of holding that space in a way that feels good by being kind to ourselves. I think it's a huge part. I think it's step one,

Leisa Reichelt: 34:38

One of the funny things for me is that, my story that I tell myself is that if I'd have done a better job, I would've got on top of this situation much earlier. My son wouldn't have had as much distress and trauma as he'd had, and we wouldn't be here. So I deserve this because I didn't do a good job earlier, and so none of this, oh, oh, you're a good mom. You've tried, you know, none of that lands because I have such a strong story, but reading your chapter, gave me an incentive to let that go because it would be good for my child. I could let that story go because it's gonna help my child, which, is probably not the way you're supposed to do it, but if it works, who cares?

Esther Jones: 35:14

I think one of the biggest things in unschooling and one of the most inspiring parts of it is that we are showing our children or we are doing the best we can to show our children what it looks like to live a good life. I often think, how would I like my child to manage this moment at my age? Well, I'd like them to be kind to themselves. Well, then I have to show that. And show your child, no, it matters to me to take care of myself. And it will matter to you when you are an adult to take care of yourself. So sometimes I think if we can frame it in a what do I want to show my child? That can sometimes give us that little path in because I think what you're talking about is really common. So where's our little path into what gives us permission to be self-compassionate?

Leisa Reichelt: 36:02

Yeah, because it's a better way to look after our kids is what works for

Esther Jones: 36:05

Well, if that's the way into it.

Leisa Reichelt: 36:09

Exactly. Esther, I feel a compulsion to have a sense of what my job is as a parent who's doing unschooling. Can you help me understand what's my job? what am I supposed to do?

Esther Jones: 36:25

I think if we go back to that, we're doing many things if we think of it as being our child's ally. Our most fundamental part, is to hold a non-judgmental space. It's to hold the space within which people can feel relaxed. Those nervous systems can relax when they're with us. They don't feel judged or criticized. I think that's the most important part. And then really facilitating, just noticing, some of this will be looking for books on things they're interested in Or some of it will be talking with them about what they're enjoying. So, I think it's important to see what could we bring to the home that's interesting. How can we keep life interesting? If you have a child that doesn't like to go out, if you've got any interesting friends that can come around, films that you can put on, you know, keep the possibilities of life alive, let's say. So it would depend very much on every child. I mean, I'll give you some examples My oldest son, who was a real gamer. A lot of it was just sort of understanding his gaming. It's always been about talking with him about political systems, economics, all of the things that he loved in his gaming. With him, it's been a lot of conversation. He had a lot of social anxiety, so around the age of 13, 14, he wanted to start doing more groups and things. So a lot of it was helping him, transition into being in more groups. So if you have a child who gets social anxiety, for them to take that at their own pace, I think is such an advantage because they're able to say, yeah, this feels like a good space for me, or No, this doesn't. And again, that wisdom around what feels safe, what feels good. And so for him, it's been a lot about moving out into the world and trying out new things and me accompanying him. I would really say whatever your child wants, and some child might want quite a lot of structure. Some child might not, you know, and again, just getting curious about that. My middle child actually went to school for about five months. He decided he would try out the local school. Unschooling can include school. Because they are exploring life. What does it look like to help them in their exploration of life? What does that look like today?

Leisa Reichelt: 38:26

Hmm.

Esther Jones: 38:27

and sometimes it may look like very little and sometimes it may look like a great adventure. and sometimes it may look like them trying out school. And then making your relationship the most important thing. Sometimes I have a joke. I was interviewing someone from my podcast and we were talking about what we do and I was saying I think there's something about just being a benign presence in the house, just being a nice person to be around. You know, they come in the kitchen and mom doesn't say, what are you doing today? She says, you want a cup of tea? It's everything. It's so small, but it's everything, you know? And the space becomes invitational. and that requires us being okay too. It's very important that we are feeling as good as we can in order to be able to do that. I would add something to that because we are the adult here. We are the parent. We do have more lived experience. Of course, I have always been a couple of years ahead

Leisa Reichelt: 39:20

I,

Esther Jones: 39:21

so far as what are the potential opportunities in our area for them, that kind of thing. I think there's no harm at all in thinking well at 14, all these things open up. At 16, all these things open up. At 18, there are these possibilities. You don't have to share them with your child. You may and the child may say, no, that's not for me. That's fine. But you can be keeping an eye out, bringing things in, noticing. I think that's really important that we are doing that.'cause we do have some sense of, we have a sense of the system as well. We have a sense of when they might want to rejoin that system.

Leisa Reichelt: 39:55

Hmm.

Esther Jones: 39:55

Right, and at what points might that work for them? So all of that, I would be fully embracing of it all

Leisa Reichelt: 40:02

I've started putting ideas of things that we could potentially do on little index cards and giving him a little stack

Esther Jones: 40:09

Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 40:09

When you're ready, have a look at these. They're just some thoughts. If there's anything in there that you think might be of interest, let me know. If not, that's fine too. And routinely, tells me how rubbish all of my ideas are, but the other day he chose one, so, hooray.

Esther Jones: 40:23

Right. There you go.

Leisa Reichelt: 40:24

I think that brings us to one of the other triggers, right? Which is, if I go down this pathway, how is this gonna limit them in the rest of their life? What kind of opportunities am I cutting off by choosing this pathway? How should we think about that?

Esther Jones: 40:39

Yeah, so I think that's normal. I certainly had that when we began. My own lived experience and that of many people I know is that our children as they grow older stay in that place of understanding themselves and knowing what feels good for them. They're very connected to what they want to do. My 17-year-old, for example, last year at 16, went to a sixth form college, which is like the two last years of high school.

Leisa Reichelt: 41:04

Mm-hmm.

Esther Jones: 41:05

so that he could then go to university. So he did the exams he needed to do, he did them from home and it took about seven months. He got just what he needed. That was his goal, and he got a place and he's loving it. He's having a great time. It's very easygoing. It's no uniform, it's first name terms with the, you know, it's all very respectful and he really enjoying that. And he's very interesting'cause he notices like, so there's one class that he doesn't much enjoy because he feels like nobody really wants to be there and they're not enthusiastic enough because he's there a hundred percent. He's there out of choice. He knows he doesn't have to be there. And he is also so used to doing his own thing. He's very self-directed, He is enthusiastic, he's self-directed. I only see that he's really well set up for it. So that's been very interesting. And then my oldest son, who finds classroom learning, particularly galling, he's a far more hands-on experimental guy. he just finished a two year college further education thing in performing arts.

Leisa Reichelt: 42:06

Hmm.

Esther Jones: 42:07

in a small group he did a lot of writing. it was so interesting. I can't see that there was anything missing. Particularly in any kind of work that's required thinking, creative thinking, having their own thoughts, they're so used to doing that. so I think that if a kid did go back in they could find it difficult, to settle into that routine of things. But I think if they're there out of choice.'cause this is what makes sense to them. They kind of make it work. They're much wiser than we think they will be. They have a lot of capacity. There might be some catching up to do in some area, but we didn't even find that. So my experience has been that, they know how to learn, they know how they learn. And there's many ways of sort of slotting back in later on.

Leisa Reichelt: 42:50

Amazing. so wrapping up. for folk who are coming at this, particularly through that School Can't lens. So we've tried school that's not worked and probably, this is like a last resort kind of situation. and eventually, hopefully we see that

Esther Jones: 43:09

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 43:09

great place to be. How should we think about that transition from school, and the difficulties there into an unschooling way of thinking and being.

Esther Jones: 43:22

Yeah, I would focus entirely on relationship, connection and feeling okay. And I would drop everything else. You know? Nothing is learned in stress, in anxiety. I would focus on making things feel as good and safe as possible. Be their safe space. Enjoy them. See them for who they are. See the wonderful parts of them, and reflect those back at them. Don't reflect back at them that they've failed, that you've failed. I know that's really hard, but keep questioning that narrative. Keep questioning it. Find voices that you enjoy listening to. Find podcasts like yours. Find people that have walked that path and hold onto those. But more than anything, try to come back to seeing your child as a whole person, as you, as a whole person, as absolutely enough, and just focus on your wellbeing, your happiness. If you are happy today and you do nothing, you are happy today and that's fantastic and the thing will come

Leisa Reichelt: 44:25

That's a lot better than where a lot of us are right now.

Esther Jones: 44:28

right?

Leisa Reichelt: 44:28

That's fantastic advice. Thank you so much. It's been wonderful to talk to you today. I know you have a ton of helpful resources, including the upcoming book. Where's the best place for us to find out about all of that?

Esther Jones: 44:43

So the book, has been out for about a week or so. it's called, the Parents Handbook to Unschooling Yourself. And, otherwise if you go to my website, which is esther-jones.com, everything is there as well. My podcast is there. You can access my writing from there and get in touch, my courses, whatever. And I'm always really delighted to hear from people, Whatever your situation. So do reach out.

Leisa Reichelt: 45:06

Well, i'll put links to all of that in the notes so that you can access them easily. Alright, thank you so much, Esther. It's been fantastic to talk. Appreciate it.

Esther Jones: 45:15

Thank you very much. Bye.

Leisa Reichelt: 45:17

Well, I loved talking to Esther, and I hope you found something really helpful in that conversation as well. I've put a link to Esther's website in the episode notes, and you can go there to find all the great resources she has available and to dive more deeply into understanding unschooling. If you have found our podcast helpful, please do take a moment to subscribe or give us a rating or a review. You will be our favorite people and it really does help us get the podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and who haven't yet found our community and all the information and support that we share. If you have some feedback for us. Perhaps you have a suggestion for a future topic or a guest, or maybe you'd like to share your own lived experience of School Can't. Please drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. From the 31st of October, the Victorian government is shutting down their Parent Helpline, which is very disappointing. I have put a link to protest this in the episode notes if you are inclined to do so. Thank you again for listening. We will talk again soon. Take care.