#39 - Melisa & Jamie's Lived Experience

In this episode Melisa and her son Jamie to share their inspiring story with host, Leisa Reichelt. Jamie, who struggled with conventional schooling due to autism and other challenges, found an unconventional but successful educational pathway.

Despite difficulties including bullying, sensory challenges and a lack of support in school, Jamie flourished through home education, ultimately enrolling in university at a young age and recently earning a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford. 

We explore the challenges and successes of their journey, including the importance of education redesigned to suit the learning needs of the individual, and the strength required from parents and children in navigating 'School Can't' scenarios. 

If you're a parent or carer facing similar challenges, this episode offers a beacon of hope and practical insights.

00:00 Introduction to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:53 Meet Melisa and Jamie: A Unique Educational Journey

02:53 Early Struggles with Conventional Schooling

07:50 The Turning Point: Year Four and Beyond

16:16 Transition to Homeschooling

24:29 Discovering a Pathway to University

32:50 Achieving Academic Success and Beyond

38:04 Final Thoughts and Advice for Parents

Recommended Resources

• Theresa Kidd: https://www.kiddclinic.com.au/
• Open Universities Australia: https://www.open.edu.au/

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I am Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today we have another delightful conversation with a parent and their young person. We are joined by mum, Melisa, and her son Jamie, who are sharing their experience of School Can't and how this has led to our unconventional but successful educational pathway for Jamie. A content warning. We do touch on topics of physical assault at school, so please take care when listening and reach out for support if you need it. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Melisa and Jamie. Well, Melisa and Jamie, thank you so much for joining us for our podcast today. We're delighted to have you and excited to hear your story.

Melisa: 1:01

Thanks, Leisa.

Jamie: 1:02

Thank you. We're happy to be here.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:05

Let us start with a bit of general context for you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourselves and what what do we need to know about you?

Melisa: 1:13

Do you wanna go first, Jamie?

Jamie: 1:16

Sure. At the moment I am a theoretical physics student. Actually just had my last exam last week, so about to finish my degree.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:27

Congratulations.

Jamie: 1:29

Thank you. I'm very happy about not having any more exams. I entered University through quite an unconventional pathway because I actually didn't go to high school in the conventional sense. I homeschooled since I was 11, because of challenges with conventional schooling that I'm sure we will discuss very soon.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:53

How old are you now, Jamie?

Jamie: 1:55

18

Leisa Reichelt: 1:57

Lovely. Tell us about yourself, Melisa

Melisa: 2:00

I'm Jamie's mum and I've been on the wild ride with him, which has been not as easy as it sounds when Jamie explains it like that. But it's been wonderful and we're at this really fantastic end of it where things have come together so well for us, even though we're a bit bruised and battered from the journey.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:20

Tell us a bit about the the family. Have you got siblings, Jamie?

Jamie: 2:24

Yes, I have a younger sister called Lily, who's in the next door room now as we speak.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:30

And what about you, Melisa? Are you are a working mum? Yeah.

Melisa: 2:33

There was a lot of time where I didn't work. I'm a nurse, a pediatric nurse, child health nurse and a midwife. And was working in education. For a long time I was only able to do little bits and pieces, but in a academic setting, I could just go in and do small amounts of work over this period of time where we struggled with school.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:54

Alright, well, let's tell this story. Where do you think it starts? I might ask you, Melisa, where do you think the story starts?

Melisa: 3:03

Well, Jamie, right from the outset, was uncomfortable about leaving me. When I was pregnant with my daughter and I tried this little daycare around the corner, he was just not interested, did not want to separate. And then starting school, it was just the same. He took a lot of reassurance every day. He was just not comfortable with it. And people would tell me, he'll eventually just love it. Give him some time. We had some limited amounts of success along the way with a lot of structure around it, but it never really clicked. We'd have moments of an amazing teacher or a friendship that was supporting him. But it was always really tricky. It didn't really escalate until he was around year four, where, it was very, very difficult getting Jamie to school with so much structure around. And it just kept getting worse from there.

Leisa Reichelt: 4:02

When you say you know it was possible with structure around it, what do you mean by structure?

Melisa: 4:06

mean, it would take us hours to get ready in the morning. There was lots of games and lightheartedness. Even just with kindy, it would be when you finish, we'll go and see the car wash and those kinds of things. And I was on, eggshells outside the whole time, hoping that he'd had a good time and that then we could see the car wash.

Leisa Reichelt: 4:25

The carwash was the treat. Yeah.

Melisa: 4:26

the treat.

Leisa Reichelt: 4:29

That's so cute. of those early days, Jamie?

Jamie: 4:33

Well, I completely concur with everything mum just said. I would like to add actually for some context that although we do know now that I was autistic, we did not know that at the time. Because I didn't get my diagnosis until I was 12. Which I think is, is important context for a lot of those early struggles, you know? I did find the world to be much more of an overwhelming place than would be considered normal, I guess, for someone of that age. My earliest memories of going to kindy were just, I remember the first time I went I didn't really understand what was going on and I was sort of like, okay, there's all of these people. I'm not entirely sure who they are, but, that's okay. I can try and find out. Then everything sort of went downhill very fast when mum left and I realized that, mum wouldn't be there with me. And, that didn't really get easier with time.

Melisa: 5:35

So we had, psychologists involved right from when he was three or four. I think he must have been a very difficult picture to diagnose because although autism was raised as a possibility from the outset, we were just told no, he wouldn't meet criteria. He and I were very close and I think that confused a diagnosis for a long time. I think it also perpetuated this kind of understanding that I might be part of the problem. That it might have been my difficulty with letting go of Jamie. So I think that we were sort of misdiagnosed.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:08

that, That was that it possibly your fault for not letting go well enough, that was that what psychologists were saying to you.

Melisa: 6:17

teachers, stories that you hear often, it's because he's worried about you during the day and your mental state. And, I just remember saying to so many people, I don't actually think I'm anxious, but the whole world is telling me it's probably my anxiety that's causing Jamie's difficulties. And so it was very hard for me to kind of understand what was going on.

Jamie: 6:39

I'd like to add as well. It's one of the things that does upset me is it seems like I often hear of parents or particularly mothers being blamed and I have very little patience with those people. It's really, quite a horrible part of human psychology to want to do that.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:58

I don't think you'll have many people listening, Jamie, who will disagree with you on that. Thanks for your support. yeah, it must have been a pretty torrid time. Melisa, was it, as you were trying to work out what was going on and how best to support Jamie?

Melisa: 7:12

I've heard people say before, Leisa, these big voices from the school and psychology I was doing my best. I've got a level of education myself around development. I was doing my absolute best, to fit this model and make these things fit and they just were not fitting. it took me a long time to get the confidence to just say, no, I'm not listening anymore. That I think I know better.

Leisa Reichelt: 7:38

What was your experience like at school, Melisa Did you thrive at school?

Melisa: 7:42

No, but I had a difficult family background. So I didn't speak up, I just got on with things.

Leisa Reichelt: 7:50

Alright, so we managed as best we could until year four. You said things really escalated in year four. Tell me about that. What happened then?

Jamie: 8:01

Well, my memory is up till year four, the things that I struggled with were not nice to go through. But on the whole, I still felt I was reasonably safe in that environment, as in, I was bullied in the sense that other kids would say unkind things to me, but that's sort of where it stopped.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:25

Hmm.

Jamie: 8:26

I think that really started to change around year four. I would actually say more year five. That started to change as some of those other kids grew older.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:37

You wanna talk us through a little bit about how that changed.

Jamie: 8:41

Um, I guess just, just more things started happening that would go beyond just saying unkind things, but actually turn into, violent actions. I remember during that time around year four or five, I would beg every morning to not go to school because I don't think there are many living creatures that would willingly walk into an environment Yeah. I would actually argue towards the end, I was physically unsafe.

Leisa Reichelt: 9:10

How did the school respond to this? I presume that you were talking with teachers about what was going on.

Melisa: 9:17

Yeah, so socially there had been difficulties all the way through primary school. There'd be these flareups or these difficulties with a particular child and we'd pull the parents in and I was led to understand that these were loving, lovely parents and that maybe Jamie was provoking these situations or in the wrong place at the wrong time. We'd set up spaces in the library where he could go and were sort of constructing ways of Jamie finding safer spots. But in the school that he was in, going from year four into year five, it's a middle school model. So they're moving out of their classroom more and there's less supervision. And I think that's probably why some of these things escalated then.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:01

What you're what you're saying I think, is that ultimately the school didn't do anything effectively

Melisa: 10:05

It was almost like Jamie was provoking these situations and I was creating these, you know, I was overactive to these situations that Jamie was reporting to me.

Jamie: 10:16

I would like to point out though that there, at least from my memory, there were some people at the school who genuinely did care and genuinely did try to help. The problem is that there were a lot more people who I don't think did.

Melisa: 10:34

Yeah. It was quite dismissive. The school, I guess they were doing their best, but it was a bigger problem than maybe they realized. We had a change of head of that middle school. And he was new and didn't understand. He actually said to us that there was a culture of bullying around Jamie that he was unable to change. And so that plus a few other things intellectually Jamie was asking to access different kind of content, and he was restricted often because he wouldn't complete the reading or he wasn't there on that day or, he wasn't allowed to get a pen license because his writing was messy with a pencil. And, those kinds of things that just made sensory things for Jamie that just made everything about being at school much more hard for him. So it was those two things coming together that made me brave enough to realize that nothing was working in that environment.

Leisa Reichelt: 11:28

Tell me more about the learning side of things, Jamie. In terms of school as a learning experience for you in those years, what was that like?

Jamie: 11:35

I did want to comment on that actually. A lot of people these days sort of ask me, did you leave school because it was too easy for you, because you just did everything and went so far ahead? But actually, no. I think in a lot of people's eyes, I would've been a very poor student. A lot of them would even have looked at me perhaps as like a, as, as a dumb student, because I have dysgraphia as well. So my writing at the time, I could barely write. And when I did write, it was not legible to many people. As a result, and, and also just with there, because there are programs designed to extend children who are interested in learning more things. But I wasn't really able to be involved in any of them because they occurred in environments where I wouldn't be able to cope or, just that I wouldn't be allowed because of my handwriting or things like that.

Leisa Reichelt: 12:38

When you say that the the extension activities were held in places that you couldn't really access. Can you talk a little bit about what were they like that made them inaccessible to you?

Jamie: 12:50

There's quite a few, and one that I remember pretty clearly is ICAS tests. I think that's what they're called, that I was involved in every year. And my understanding is those are sort of like an optional extension, is that right? Those were very traditional pen and paper exam settings, and, back then of course I had pretty much no supports, none of the accommodations that have allowed me to do better in those sorts of tests at university. So yeah, I really, I couldn't perform in that sort of situation.

Leisa Reichelt: 13:25

Knowing what you know now, Jamie, what are the kinds of accommodations that you would've needed to have been able to participate in that.

Jamie: 13:33

I think, to be honest, at the time with all the other challenges, I just wasn't in the frame of mind anyway to be able to do things like that. But assuming that I wasn't, the accommodations that helped me are to have extra time to manage my slower writing speed and to write things neater. Having rest breaks, having a separate venue and being able to bring something like a tactile object to fidget with are all things that have helped me.

Melisa: 14:01

Can I share, also Leisa, Jamie has been able to do a lot of his complex mathematical exams at uni on a whiteboard, which is a bigger pen, and it's a very different hand action. And the other thing Jamie's explained to me is if he makes a mistake in an equation really early on, he can correct it so quickly. Whereas on paper, he feels like he has to rewrite. And so the strength and the energy goes into forming the calculations and the writing rather than the thought behind it.

Leisa Reichelt: 14:30

Wow, that's such a clever idea, isn't it?

Melisa: 14:33

But even, when Jamie was in year four, he wanted to learn calculus. There was a boy in his class accessing high school maths at the time. Jamie really wanted to do that. I was told by the teachers that there was some really basic foundational things that he couldn't do that would not allow him then to progress. And what we've discovered with Jamie through homeschooling is that it feeds his brain to have those really complex things, and he learns the basic foundations himself. And like he'll problem solve and go, oh, in order to do that, I need to be able to multiply two digit numbers. And so then he'll learn that concept himself. It was just that model of building on top of a foundation each year that was repeating Jamie had to repeat through these really tedious, difficult things for him to learn, and he wasn't accessing the deeper thought that he was wanting.

Leisa Reichelt: 15:24

that's the motivation is such a powerful force for learning, isn't it? I was talking to someone the other day, they were telling me about their son who's learning some computer science, and it's like if he has to go through the introductory material before he gets to the exercise, he just switches off and can't do it, but throw him straight in the exercise and then he'll go back and reference the introductory stuff to solve the problem that he's trying to solve. And it's completely different learning design. One way works very powerfully for him, and the other way just makes him kind of cut off from learning altogether.

Melisa: 15:57

It makes me think. I'm not sure if a school environment would ever actually be able to cater for that type of learning, but I do think they need to appreciate that not everybody learns in that traditional way.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:09

So year five, the wheels kind of fell off. Attending school became extremely difficult.

Jamie: 16:16

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:16

Tell me a little bit about how that kind of came to a head and how you moved into a different way of learning.

Jamie: 16:23

Things sort of continued like that through year five and six. There was a brief period in year five where I went to part-time schooling, which helped for the days that I was not at school, but for the days that I was at school, it sort of exacerbated the perceived difference that I feel like was the root cause of the bullying. Then in year six, went back to full-time school. Same things continued, and then partway through year six, we moved to another school. That one had more of a Montessori model. So academically, I think that suited me better because I was left to learn about what I wanted to learn about. The learning side was a bit better, but the problem is the social side, very quickly the same issues emerged. And I guess that sort of taught us that that would happen anywhere we went. And yeah, eventually several very bad things happened again.

Melisa: 17:30

Mm.

Jamie: 17:31

And that was when I just couldn't go anymore. And mum and dad agreed to try homeschooling.

Melisa: 17:38

We had a very small window of tolerance with the second school, so as soon as one or two situations happened, we were out of there.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:45

What were you thinking, Melisa, as you were pulling out of one school, trying another one...

Melisa: 17:50

That was really hard you know, because in retrospect, I just don't think any of us were ready to go back into a different learning environment so soon. Jamie was quite traumatized. I think we all were. For me, the same things occurring in a different school just made me feel like it was us. It was me, it was us. That was a really, very depressing thought because I had been thinking it was the school and what was going on in the school environment that was the problem. But at least, it gave me the strength to know that we had no other option. We had to try and make homeschool work and we focused really on repairing and rebuilding with Jamie. I actually really loved it. Those early days of homeschooling where I just felt like he was three again, and, his learning came alive again. We rebuilt that relationship and had fun together. That was lovely, but scary. Very scary.

Leisa Reichelt: 18:44

You didn't set out, intending to home educate. What was your process of getting your head around the fact that you were gonna do it and then how you were gonna approach it?

Melisa: 18:54

The decision easy to make because we had no other alternative. And, you know, being a health professional, I could see that Jamie's mental health and my own, our whole family was crumbling. We were a family in crisis. So we had no other alternative. I thought we would nurture and repair and build our relationships again. I knew Jamie loved learning, and I knew he had capacity to learn, and I just thought, we'll do that. And, so luckily we had a moderator that really suited or really supported that. She sort of helped us find a way that we could deschool or follow Jamie's interests. And I just pitched lots of different ideas to him. The schooling was second to re-forming the relationships and things initially. With maths, I was conscious that he might have had to follow the same content that he might cover in school in case he ever did go back. But I knew that the way he'd been learning before, in school hadn't suited him. So I sought out tutors that were gonna meet Jamie. Rebuild those relationships and share something that they loved. So we found a tutor that was really interested in physics and Jamie loved physics and wasn't so keen on maths. And so we asked her to show him the maths in the physics. And that just opened up that world for Jamie. And then I found another tutor who had homeschooled for a while herself. She was hilarious. She'd sit there with Jamie with a textbook and just flip to a page and say, try that. He'd do one, she'd flip to the next chapter, try that. And they jumped through this whole curriculum in weeks. So Jamie really progressed very quickly and started to really enjoy it. So, we got tutors for those main subjects and explored the world went to museums and learned about life and buying things from the shop and ironing shirts and things like that, in the meantime.

Leisa Reichelt: 20:48

Did it take much time from when you finished at school to be able to engage with learning or was it a pretty quick process?

Melisa: 20:58

It took a while.

Jamie: 20:59

It took a long time. Yeah.

Melisa: 21:00

I think those tutors, that was what I insisted on as a bit of a background framework. So there we had a English, maths and a science tutor. so that was three hours a week and that pretty much was the structure of our week.

Jamie: 21:15

I do want to explain as well though that that wasn't just how I learned. One of the reasons that homeschooling works very well for me is that I love reading. So I would say most of my learning was done through just reading books, and that's something I've always genuinely enjoyed. I was able to do that pretty much immediately, but, only things that I actually was interested in learning about and nothing out of the house. At first we did try a few activities that were, say, going to, to different groups or going to outdoor activities. But, it was all too much like school at that time. So I couldn't do that.

Melisa: 21:55

Jamie would just say to me, anything that's like school I'm not doing, it's too schoolish. He'd say, and we are not doing it.

Leisa Reichelt: 22:03

I know we've got so much positive stuff to talk about, but before we really get into that, I want people to understand that you really have been on the full journey. And it wasn't just a matter of, oh, school didn't work. So we switched and then amazing things happened. You mentioned before, Melisa, you said you're a family in crisis. Can you tell us a little bit about what life was like then?

Melisa: 22:25

I think, everybody's fear and anxiety is quite high around this, and we could see, I might get emotional, Leisa. We could see the pain Jamie was in. It's a really unknown pathway. The people around us didn't understand what we were doing either. Even my husband took a while to get on board really. There was conflict there. My daughter was still having to go to school and other things for her were emerging and she had to take a back seat. So I think, that's what I mean by us being in crisis. All of our relationships were frayed. I think I was putting a lot of pressure on Jamie. I remember when he first went part-time, I'd sort of say, we'll do this, but you have to go to school on those other days. You have to be there for the there for the whole day. You have to not complain. And the pressure on him to have had to do that. I feel terrible about that now

Leisa Reichelt: 23:25

How were you feeling during that time, Jamie?

Jamie: 23:28

Terrible Just to give an idea of some of the things that were happening. I got punched a few times, shoved over quite a lot. Someone threatened to stab me. And those are just a bunch of other things that I don't even feel comfortable saying out loud as well. The thing is I kept having to go back and so for a long time I felt almost resentment towards my family for continuing to send me back. After all that was happening, I'd still have to go back. By the end, I hated pretty much every second of life. And of course one of my biggest regrets, of my entire childhood is I didn't recognize that the same stuff was happening with my sister. I almost resented her too, for, from what I saw, not going through those issues when actually she was.

Leisa Reichelt: 24:17

Okay. Let's, let's move on to happier things then. So we, transitioned to home education, had some recovery time, fell back in love with learning again. What was your home education experience like? How is it that you are this and already have a degree almost?

Jamie: 24:37

Like I said, I found homeschool suited us really well. Just by reading there was a lot I was able to learn and then supplemented by having tutors to actually have discussions about those things that fascinated me. At first I didn't know, we didn't know whether there was any pathway to go to university without going through high school at all. Eventually it turned out there was, and it involved taking online university units through open universities. So I started that when I was 13 and then when I was 14, I remember very clearly because it was actually on my birthday that mum said she had been put into contact with these three professors at Curtin who I might be able to meet. And it was them who suggested that I formally start my degree full-time.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:35

What possessed you at the age of 13 to start taking on university level work?

Jamie: 25:41

I wanted to when I was 12, but they had an age limit of 13 years. It's one of the great curses of being young is age limits. It's such pain.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:50

at the other end as well, sadly. So enjoy this middle time.

Jamie: 25:53

mm-hmm. I shall. Yeah. I guess I just at that point felt ready to move forward. I mean, I was very lucky to know exactly what I wanted to do very early, and I got to the stage where I wanted to move forward beyond just learning these things from books.

Leisa Reichelt: 26:16

I guess there's not a lot of theoretical physics in the high school curriculum. Is there?

Jamie: 26:22

No. I certainly have very strong views about the physics and maths curriculums. The physics that most kids learn in high school, and sadly is the only physics that many people ever learn, is physics that's hundreds of years old. All of the things that really make me want to do physics, like the questions about how the universe begun and the equations that describe its evolution and quantum mechanics. Most people never learn that. That's not really in the curriculum.

Leisa Reichelt: 26:54

Oh, we're too busy memorizing Newton's laws, aren't we?

Jamie: 26:57

Yes, exactly. And, for maths, I would say the situation is even worse. A lot of the maths that's taught in school, the only maths I was taught in school is arithmetic. And maths is so much more than arithmetic. There's, different types of infinities, fractals, all of those fascinating things that, again, most people will never know.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:20

So Melisa, how did you come into contact with these amazing people at Curtin University?

Melisa: 27:24

I was lucky to go to a few talks by Theresa Kidd, and we were seeing Theresa Kidd. And she had been involved in setting up the Autism Academy at Curtin. She knew that mentoring had been positive for somebody else that she worked with. And she put us in contact with this young person as a potential mentor who'd been at Curtin. And then she actually wrote to Tele Tan, who is the Curtin representative from the Autism Academy. And he was the one that organized this meeting with two professors, one from engineering, one from physics. When we were all in the room, Jamie just had eyes for physics professor. They straight away started talking. It was really clear that Jamie wasn't interested in coding or engineering. It was just all physics.

Jamie: 28:12

I had been reading Stephen Hawking's books a lot, and to learn that this physics professor had actually met Stephen Hawking, in person was, yes my 14-year-old mind was blown.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:25

That's so sweet. So tell me about this university learning experience. How has it been? Obviously it's hard work. Has it been easier for you than schooling? Tell me a little bit about pros and cons, how it's different.

Jamie: 28:40

I've loved it. It's been absolutely incredible. I've had supports to help me in exam situations with challenges because of my autism and dysgraphia. Of course they can only help so much. Exams were still horrible for me, so I'm not sad at all about being done with them. Also, the other thing is, students are treated like adults. No one's forcing them to be there. They can leave if they want. For the most part in physics, everyone genuinely wants to learn and loves the subject. And of course also if someone punches you there, they go to prison. So, that part was safer as well.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:22

Wow. That's, kind of mind blowing, isn't it? Why are some things okay at school that would never be okay in the rest of the world, ever?

Melisa: 29:29

Jamie, at a very young age was asking me if children could take out a restraining order. And he couldn't understand why as a 8-year-old child, he couldn't do that. and I understand now, that he was really feeling like he needed that kind of protection.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:46

I can't get what you just said out of my head. If someone punches me at university, they'll go to prison, know, uh, you'd gone through all of that at school for such a long time.

Melisa: 29:54

From an academic perspective, what I could see in Jamie was the semi-structure around a university unit where there's a predictable pattern with assessments, but you are able to learn that content at your own pace. That really appealed to Jamie and it just surprised me so much with that first unit that he could pace himself through these assessments. Jamie had a PDA profile and it just fitted him that he could be self-determined and work his way through those assessments. And it's really scary that I couldn't help him if he needed help, but he actually managed through that himself. Speaking to those professors, I could reassure them that he can learn independently and he was coping with the pressure of exams. So Jamie was able to come onto campus with me. So he felt very safe on the university campus, safer than a shopping center or anywhere else in the world. And as he said, a school. So he felt really comfortable with the environment and they invited him into lectures to see what he felt about learning in that space. And he loved it. But even through Open Universities, we met the curriculum support coordinator, and I'll never forget Jamie, she just invited you into this room and said, what can we do so that you can do your best? And it's just such a different attitude and she just said whatever you need. And way back when Jamie was only 13, that meant having his mum outside the exam venue and all these things, and she just absolutely went with it, whatever he needed to do his best, which, was very different to what we'd experienced in school.

Leisa Reichelt: 31:33

What about the social side of things? I imagine that there's lots of people going, well, you struggled socially all through school and then you home educated. However is Jamie going to develop social competencies and social connections in the world? How has that experience been for you over the last few years, Jamie?

Jamie: 31:48

Well, something that I found during my homeschool days is that I tended to get along with people who were older than me anyway, perhaps because they were a little more mature. So that part made things easier during university. But also just the fact that everyone there loved physics as much as I did, made it almost impossible not to get along very well with them. I guess some of it was just luck. I happened to come across some incredibly supportive people, both other students and lecturers. It was hard during my first year because people could see that I was younger, so I did feel very different and very shy. It was really more in second year that I started actually speaking to the other students, but we became friends very quickly.

Leisa Reichelt: 32:39

That was so great. So you powered your way through university and then recently, more excitement. Can you tell us a little bit about your recent news?

Jamie: 32:54

Well, yeah, a few weeks ago I found out that I got the Rhodes Scholarship, so next year I'll, wow I can't believe this. Still I get moments like this where it, it seems crazy to say out loud, but I will be going to Oxford for my PhD.

Leisa Reichelt: 33:13

Wow. Not bad for a bit of a dumb student in year five. Hey?

Jamie: 33:20

Yes. I guess so.

Melisa: 33:22

Leadership is a really interesting thing to look at.'Cause you know, school will tell you that you develop leadership through resilience and through sportsmanship and through being a prefect and all these things. And Jamie didn't have any of those opportunities and it was a big concern applying for something like a Rhode scholarship. And yet Jamie's leadership was so strong in a very, very different way.

Leisa Reichelt: 33:50

How does Jamie's leadership come through?

Melisa: 33:53

Do you wanna, Jamie.

Jamie: 33:56

I guess a lot of it is more of a quiet leadership. By entering university through the pathway I did, it's essentially forged a new pathway and, since then several other students who we know directly and many more that I've heard about indirectly who've also entered higher education through that pathway. Of course, being younger at university was intimidating but there have been times recently where I've sought out opportunities to share my journey and advocate for some of those supports that help neurodivergent students in university. So I guess in that sense, I sort of, lead by going against my nature. Because it's definitely not in my nature to put myself out there like that. I'm still a very introverted person.

Leisa Reichelt: 34:54

Why do you do it?

Jamie: 34:56

Well, I guess it's very important to me that others can one day have an easier time going through that process than I did. Because I was told by a lot of people, including members of my own family, like, I don't want to make my dad feel bad, but, cough, cough, So I feel like it's important to provide a counter example to all of those arguments that there's only one right way to do things, and if you can't do this, it's impossible to do science or physics. And, that's very important to me because I did make it through, so I feel like I need to make people aware that if people say that it's impossible, they're either lying or have no idea what they're talking about.

Leisa Reichelt: 35:44

Jamie, just for people who don't know, what is a Rhodes scholarship?

Jamie: 35:47

It's a scholarship that will fully fund postgraduate study at Oxford. My understanding is it's one of the oldest, if not the oldest, postgraduate scholarship program in the world. I was incredibly astonished and very honored to get one. The criteria that it's awarded based on academic excellence, Also, things like community service, leadership, sports, art and culture. Something that can demonstrate that you have, I think their wording is energy to use your talents to the full. And also, a commitment to humanity as a whole, to making the world a better place.

Leisa Reichelt: 36:35

And what will your PhD be on?

Jamie: 36:38

I'm not sure the exact topic yet, because it will likely be on some aspect of quantum gravity, which is a different area of research to what I've done in my undergraduate degree. There's some incredible work being done at Oxford on various aspects of quantum gravity. There are some professors who I was lucky enough to meet in person this year so I'll be speaking to them about that.

Leisa Reichelt: 37:07

And I assume mum's not coming with you.

Jamie: 37:12

Probably to visit.

Melisa: 37:13

Yes, definitely to visit. But we did a trial run in June in the lead up. Jamie organized himself a summer research position and, had a scholarship to pay for that. So self-funded and self-supported. So we did go as spectators and then left him there, and he was absolutely fine.

Leisa Reichelt: 37:36

Wow,

Melisa: 37:37

Able to live independently and managed to get himself back from Cambridge all the way to Perth and then to Japan to present at a conference. So I have no doubt that Jamie is completely capable and ready for this new challenge.

Leisa Reichelt: 37:53

Amazing. must be so proud, Melisa.

Melisa: 37:55

Proud. So proud.

Leisa Reichelt: 37:58

So, so pleased that you took that big risk of going on the different pathway. Okay, well we are pretty much outta time. Before I let you go, if you could say anything to parents who are in that dark time, that family in crisis time, that feeling, you know, forced to make a decision that they never thought that they were gonna have to make time. What do you want people to know?

Melisa: 38:27

I think that the most thing is your relationship with your child and building that connection and, and, looking after both of your needs in that, because I think, that's the thing that gets sacrificed when you are trying to meet everyone else's expectations. And I really wanted to hear that it was gonna be okay. And, so I listened to any stories I could hear through that School Can't community, of people getting there, but I desperately wanted some evidence or some numbers. I think I just had to believe in Jamie.

Leisa Reichelt: 38:59

And Jamie, what about you? What would you say to parents who have got kids who are going through really really tough times at school at the moment. What would you like them to know?

Jamie: 39:08

Well, I guess what I'd say is it's important to know that there's not just one right pathway. Make no mistake. There are some incredible people who work in the school system, and for some children it works really well and they thrive. There are some who don't have safe environments at home, and it provides a safe haven for them. But everyone's different. And for some kids, especially neurodivergent kids, they do struggle in that environment. And, there are other ways too, and I feel like it's important to have a system where everyone can follow the pathway that suits them best.

Leisa Reichelt: 39:47

Bravo. Indeed. Okay. Well thank you both so much for sharing your story with us today. I really appreciate it. And I just wish you all the absolute best, Jamie, for your time next year. Well done, you two.

Melisa: 40:02

Thank you, Leisa. Thanks School Can't community as well, and the podcast. Thank you.

Jamie: 40:08

Thank you.

Leisa Reichelt: 40:08

Well, how delightful to meet Melisa and Jamie and to hear their story. I am so happy that they have managed to emerge from their difficult times into a much happier place. If you have found this podcast helpful, I would be so grateful if you could take a moment to subscribe or give us a rating or a review. This really does help us get our podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, but who have not yet found our community and all the information we share. If you have some feedback for us or maybe a suggestion for a future topic or guest, or perhaps you've been inspired to share your own lived experience story, please drop us an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com, and I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and your feeling distressed remember, you can always call the parent helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Thanks again for listening. We will talk again soon. Take care.