#40 - Kate Broderick on relationship based teaching

In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt speaks with Kate Broderick, a dual qualified speech therapist and occupational therapist, about the transition from behaviorism to a relationship-based approach in education. 

Kate shares her personal journey as a parent of neurodivergent children and discusses the importance of building trust-based relationships to create safer and more inclusive learning environments. 

They consider the challenges and strategies for advocating for educational transformation and the critical role of nervous system safety in child development. Kate also introduces her upcoming book as a resource for teachers and parents.

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:26 Meet Kate Broderick: A Dual Qualified Therapist and School Can't Mum

01:04 Understanding Neurodivergence and Parenting

06:54 Challenges and Strategies in School Environments

14:39 Behavioral vs. Relational Approaches in Education

18:22 Building Trust and Relationships in Schools

22:26 Advocacy and Resources for Parents

30:35 Kate's Upcoming Book and Final Thoughts

37:08 Conclusion and Resources

Recommended Resources

• Dr Ross Greene, Lives in the Balance: https://livesinthebalance.org/
• Dr Mona Delahooke: https://monadelahooke.com/
• Dr Vanessa LaPointe: https://drvanessalapointe.com/
• Maggie Dent: https://www.maggiedent.com/
• Gordon Neufeld, The Neufeld Institute: https://www.neufeldinstitute.org/
• Reframing Autism: https://reframingautism.org.au/
• Belongside Families: https://belongsidefamilies.org.au/

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today we have the pleasure of talking with Kate Broderick. Kate is a School Can't mum and also a dual qualified speech therapist and occupational therapist. Kate is going to talk to us about the move to a relationship based approach to teaching and away from behaviorism. Kate's gonna talk about why this transformation is so important and how she has worked with her daughter's school to help them transform towards a more relationship based approach to teaching. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Alright. Well, Kate Broderick, thank you so much for joining us for our podcast today. It's great to have you.

Kate Broderick: 1:02

Thank you so much for inviting me. I was absolutely delighted.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:04

Tell us a little bit about yourself, Kate. You and your family, and what you do professionally as well.

Kate Broderick: 1:10

Well, maybe if I start off with the professional side, I'm a dual qualified therapist, both an occupational therapist and a speech pathologist. And I think that. Fact in and of itself speaks very much to my own neurodivergent, ADHDer identity. And something that I've always spoken about quite freely, but early in my career, didn't have a formal diagnosis. But yeah, very, very passionate clinician. And have gone on to have four children of my own, all of whom I would say are neurodivergent. But all different and different levels of sensitivity that expresses itself in their lives, both in and out of school in particular. So I have definitely got a library of stories when it comes to School Can't, and different scenarios that can work out, more positively or less positively. I know that given the professional journey that I've had, a lot of people would think that perhaps I would be better resourced than the average person. There is some level at which that's true because my kids have all accessed their identity very early and in turn they've all been strong self-advocates and that has been helpful. But also, I think we all need professionals. We all need our tribe around us. And so I know I can show up for my clients and other people in a way that, I also need people to show up for me and sit alongside me in those meetings. It's not that having a particular skill set means that you can do it all, and I think there's so much pressure on parents, and as there are so many schools that are still learning, I guess a more modern understanding of what's driving School Can't, it really isn't something that a parent can often manage when they're navigating these challenges at home to also go in and feel like they're the people who have to train their educators as well and change the school and the system. I think I probably have been that parent stroke professional for my eldest child, and that's why their school community is so phenomenal now. I'm happy to say that I have been part of that journey for the entire school. But sometimes I feel like, oh goodness, I'm the parent and I just wish someone could care for us and, you know, gather around and help me and my child.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:19

I think that you said that you were aware of your neurodivergence, although not public about it fairly early on in your journey. Did I understand that correctly?

Kate Broderick: 3:33

I definitely understood that the majority of the kids that I was supporting were ADHDers, and a lot of them were referred to me primarily with learning disabilities. So I was very fortunate that my early clinical mentors were cutting edge in understanding the role of executive functioning and the benefits of diagnosis and medical management for children who perhaps had dyslexia but weren't presenting with behavioral difficulties. Within a couple of years of my early career, I was, yeah, very aware of this idea that you could be an ADHDer and not have behavioral challenges. But that there was a unique thinking style that went along with that. I can picture myself in my clinic back in Charring Cross where I had my degrees all hanging on the wall and I'd be sitting there thinking, I smashed out three degrees in six years and here I am now running my own practice at age 25. That is a different unique brain type that has led me here. That's not the way it is for everybody. And I can see in my own kids the way their life can mirror what my life felt like and then I can see that they're still different to me and that they have significant other sensitivities that I can't necessarily relate to through my own lived experience, but there's something about that commonality in our neurotype where I do get it. I'm very attuned to it and I think quite good advocates for them.

Leisa Reichelt: 4:53

This, this is a lot more basic than what you are saying, but there is something just in recognizing that not everyone's brain works the same way that your brain works.

Kate Broderick: 5:03

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:03

is such a revelation. I just wish more people in the world realize that there are different kinds of brains of work in different kinds of ways, and that that's okay. Rather than you are, you are not thinking the way that I think, you're not acting the way that I act. Therefore, you must be doing something wrong.

Kate Broderick: 5:19

Yeah, completely. I heard someone recently talking about the fact that they think autistic parents are like just the best parents. And I agree with that and I think they did also clarify, and this is the bit that I think is really important, as long as those autistic parents understand, recognize and accept their identity. What I think can be difficult is if you have parents who potentially like me, have moved through life without too many bumps in the road, and then maybe have children who are experiencing the world differently, but who don't have insight into that, don't recognize that, and maybe almost sort of feel like everybody masks, don't they? Everybody has to just suck things up. You know, life is hard work for everybody, so what are you going on about? Just do it. if you don't realize that you are walking the path differently, uh, that's where we, I guess, lose

Leisa Reichelt: 6:10

that

Kate Broderick: 6:10

window for empathy and curiosity and being able to support our kids.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:15

Yeah, I was exactly that. I'm just like, of course it's hard. It's, you know, it's hard for every, was hard for me. It, it'll be fine. You'll manage, just keep going. It'll be fine. This is before I knew anything about my own neurodivergence, and I'm just like, well, this is just what it's like for everyone, isn't it? And then yeah, you realize later on that that whole just keep trying, suck it up, it'll get better, you'll manage is not necessarily the best parenting strategy and there are more options that might work better and be a little bit more supportive. And I wish I had more understanding much earlier on than I did, but yeah, sadly not.

Kate Broderick: 6:49

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's just most of us, but the world is definitely changing.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:54

Let's do some talking about school then, shall we? You mentioned before the work that you did with your eldest daughter, I think you said, and how you did a lot of work with the school and kind of help contributing to like transforming their understanding and maybe their, their way of working with these situations. Tell us a little bit about that story. Where did that all start and how did that go?

Kate Broderick: 7:17

Well, my eldest had a pretty good start to school. She already knew that she was an ADHDer and it was only a few weeks in that she came home one day and said to me, mum, I don't think Mr. So-and-So knows that I have ADHD because I got in big trouble today. But I was just trying my best and it was just so hard to sit still. And, you know, he put my name on the board and, that made me feel really bad about myself. And I also realized in telling this story that not all kids or, the parents of all kids are gonna listen to this and think that their child has the access to that verbal speech and could express all of that. So that is a luxury, but it's certainly one that she was able to tap into because I had told her what was going on, that she had this different brain type and was really aware of her vulnerabilities and her support needs from age five. And so I was able to straight to the principal, not in a dibber dobber way, um, but just in a, Hey, can we have a chat about this immediately? And I feel really confident that that didn't ever happen again. I was met with real respect, which I think is something that I feel is an important part of inclusion is that not that we all get it right all the time, because we can't for all people. Um, but that you are heard and you feel safe to say what you need and what your experience your child's having. And, yeah, public shaming of children with names on the board was not something the school was down with. And so there was just intention and training and communication around that sort of thing. And so, she continued to feel really safe to explain to people what brain type she had and who she was and that this is hard for me and I need your support. And sometimes would share things with me at home'cause it wasn't always things that happened to her either. She might observe the way a teacher spoke or handled challenges of other children as well, and then would be wary or unsure. So, being able to talk so openly kept her, I think very safe. That being said, the sensory demands of being at school, the number of children, the pace of the day, physical and sensory demands in most school environments are high. So that does cumulatively wear on the nervous system. And so, within a year we were already talking about anxiety and I was already using language in the space of she's not feeling safe here. And that is quite a triggering way of expressing things for a lot of educators who are beautiful, safe, and I'm using my inverted commas um, fingers here, people, they're not doing anything to actively harm children. But nervous system safety isn't something that happens at a conscious level. Our nervous system is either in a parasympathetic dominant kind of rest, digest, and learn state, or it's in a fight or flight state. And we know that so many neurodivergent people's nervous systems live almost exclusively in that sympathetic dominant state. That's the work of therapy, I think, is to kind of find all of the little 1% changes that you can make in your lifestyle to get your baseline out of that place. But school is somewhere that adds a lot of extra demands and eventually I think we do see kids with the odd maybe resistant morning. Maybe it gets viewed that way at the start and eventually if we don't change things in the environment, the physical environment, but also in the way people are interacting with that child, we can obviously see them in full blown burnout. And then that puts a stop to everything and we have to start again. So I had those conversations with the school and definitely there were teachers who felt stressed and defensive about this idea of her nervous system not feeling safe. But they listened and learned and accessed more courses. I will just say for people listening, secure attachment with trusted caregivers is the biggest tool that we have when it comes to nervous system safety for kids.And that t is, again, something that we can't judge as the adult in that dyad. Secure attachment is what a child experiences in their relationship with us. So as a therapist, I can be the safest, most calm, regulated, beautiful, warm, friendly person to any child who walks through my door, that doesn't mean they will experience secure attachment with me. And I can't feel sensitive about that. There's no ego in that. It just is what it is, and it's probably related to their needs and all their past experiences. And for some sensitive kids, it will take years to develop that trust-based relationship in therapy. And obviously, there's two ways you could look at it with teachers. One is that they get a lot of hours with kids, so that's helpful. The other is that it's in a very complex context with lots of other kids around, which isn't as helpful. And then if you have those kids who are gonna take years and then they get a new teacher every year, as is the case in most schools, then that can also be quite destabilizing. So hopefully anybody listening to this as well, even just with me explaining these things is starting to think about. Oh, who have been the continuous educators in my child's life within this school community? Or has it really felt like we're back at ground zero every single year? You know, are there these threads of connection and relationships that move with my child or are consistent and stable year to year? Or have we not had that? And does that explain something with regard to where we're at now?

Leisa Reichelt: 12:32

It does feel as though there's a lot of staff turnover in schools, isn't there? Like when my youngest son was going to high school, and so in high school you've got lots of different teachers. It just constantly felt as though teachers were coming and going. We'd have one maths teacher and then that maths teacher would be away and all of your substitute teachers coming in and it just feels a lot of the time, like relentless change in staffing that makes that secure attachment very difficult to achieve, or you do achieve it, and then it's taken away from you, which is almost worse than not having it in the first place.

Kate Broderick: 13:07

Yeah. I've got two thoughts about that. The first one is I was having a conversation with a principal from a Northern Territory based school earlier this week. And they really seem to get in that school the importance of this relationship based and trauma informed piece because kids will come if they like you. Basically that's what it is. Like, they know they have to connect with their students or else they won't show up to class. And I think that that, is actually lovely for teachers to be really mindful that connecting and being genuine, really authentic with the students is the most important thing, and the learning will flow from that. But within those communities, they do struggle with higher turnover more so than in other communities. And so, whilst there's this natural cultural embrace of what I would call this trauma informed relational approach, the teachers are much more transitory in those more isolated, rural and remote communities, which is really hard. But then, the other thing that was in mind as you were saying that, is just this idea of teacher burnout. That's where I talk a lot about this passion for a relationship based approach over behaviorism because relational approach isn't just a nice value versus behaviorism. It really is that we know behaviorism doesn't work. And teachers are, and therapists are as well, really taught so much to operate in that way. Obviously usually it's about positive reinforcement. Let's give stickers, let's give reward charts, let's give tokens. It feels nice for everybody. But actually that is setting the teachers up for stress. Because it, it actually doesn't work. And we know that now.

Leisa Reichelt: 14:39

It would be great to just unpack these two concepts, this behavioral approach and this relational approach. Talk us through what each of them mean? Like when you say a behavioral approach to teaching or to therapy, what does that look like? Where does that come from? And then, you know what, what is the contrast to that?

Kate Broderick: 14:57

I guess foundationally, there's this idea that if we see you display a certain behavior and then respond to it in a particular way that's either positively reinforcing, or negatively, that that will shape the behavior and influence the likelihood of that behavior occurring again. In my mind, what sits almost above relationship based is what I call a trauma informed approach. And trauma can be a triggering word for people, but I'm really just talking about nervous systems. So like whether or not a nervous system feels safe. And the pillars that sit under that are thinking about different developmental domain, sensory processing, motor planning, communication style, or language development, emotional sensitivity and profile. Social, style and profile, cognitive strengths and vulnerabilities and also executive functioning and all of those things are dimensions of development. And a person can either contribute to them feeling safer in environment if it plays to their strengths. Or more vulnerable, and more likely to be sitting in that fight or flight state. But out of all of those, as I said before, the thing that is the greatest powerhouse is connection with other humans. Our highest human need is connection. And so if we can build relationships, trust-based relationships with other people, and that includes parents to teachers, teachers to kids, kids to parents, all of us. If we can build strong, trusting relationships, that is very, very protective when it comes to mental health and protective of our nervous system. So being guided in a situation, for example, where there's a behavior that might be either challenging or concerning if it's dangerous, by thinking how can we quickly create nervous system safety and what can we do to protect a relationship first and foremost, knowing that once we've achieved that we can do some problem solving together, hopefully to solve whatever it was that caused that behavior. than, as, I guess Ross Greene would say, like being too late, doing things after the fact. So a lot of strategies that we see in schools like setting up calm corners, that sort of thing, those are not always strategies that are still trauma informed because they are happening after the fact. They're reactive. We are not looking at what happened before the behavior and trying to make changes in that space.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:19

It does feel as though that is the whole way that school is geared though, isn't it? Like that there has to be a problem before you introduce a solution that, you know, you have to see that something's going wrong in order to do something to help it not go wrong anymore. Like the, the preventative actions don't seem to be there anywhere near as much. You have to prove that it's necessary by something going wrong.

Kate Broderick: 17:45

Yeah, I completely agree. And I guess at a practical level, you won't know something's going wrong until you see something for the first time. But if you are an attuned caregiver, so somebody who has that connected relationship with a child and you do notice or start to become curious about whether or not there might be more sitting under the surface. That's your sign to follow that path and not just switch into reactive mode and, slapping on strategies, hoping that it'll go away.

Leisa Reichelt: 18:15

Makes me think. Kate, you mentioned as well about the, the necessity for that connected relationship between the parent and the teacher. Do you have any thoughts on what can you do to try to preemptively foster that secure relationship partnership between teacher and parents. It sounds like you were successful in doing that in your school, but you know, maybe other schools are not quite as receptive as that one seems to have been.

Kate Broderick: 18:38

Not every teacher has felt safe in their relationship with me, but I think that holistically the school knows Kate's authentic and what you see is what you get. And she's gonna always truly be just advocating for everyone's best interest. And it's showing up that consistently that's communicated that tagline that I use as a professional, and I have a slide on this in just about every presentation that I give anywhere, is all perspectives are valid. That we need to, be grateful as parents if a teacher is brave enough to share their observations, if they start to become curious about our child having any challenges, and that teachers need to know that parents' perspectives are valid and that a child's perspective as well, because sometimes even both teachers and parents are looking at a child thinking, you're alright. You are fine. they're saying, I hate school. No, it's terrible. I think we need to engage them in that conversation. Not be afraid. Oh no, if I agree with them or, or open this or around unpack it, it's gonna be like Pandora's box and then it's gonna get worse and then they're gonna not be able to go to school if I have this conversation with them. We actually do need to have that conversation with the child, even if theirs is the only voice showing us that there might be something that's harder for them, that they are doing a pretty good job of concealing most of the time.

Leisa Reichelt: 19:53

The other thing I was thinking too is like when you are running through that whole list of different facets that inform nervous system safety, you know, just for one individual, and then as a teacher you've got 20, 25, 30 individuals with all of those facets in front of you on a day-to-day basis as well. It must be very challenging to

Kate Broderick: 20:16

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 20:16

develop and monitor that kind of relational engagement with that many kids at any one time

Kate Broderick: 20:24

Absolutely. And I think we almost need to make it a given that we can't create a flawlessly inclusive environment for every person everywhere. I have to even accept those constraints at my practice where I want everyone to feel safe, but I know that the lighting is not perfect for all people. Some would prefer a waiting area that felt more snug and others like the fact that it's larger and they can wander around. And so, its very dynamic and it is about us just trusting. children do well if they can, and so do teachers and so do therapists, and so do parents. And we're all trying our best. And I think it's about those relationships because it's about us feeling safe to communicate, asking for help from one another, and trusting that if somebody's still struggling, that we're not playing the blame game that doesn't get anyone anywhere. We have to keep striving towards getting to a better place at least. To move in the right direction.'Cause just as problems can snowball, successes can as well. And when we save a child's capacity in one space and see them feeling a little bit better in music, or it's working well, that they are going to a quieter classroom for maths, we see that their capacity on the playground suddenly improves, and then the support needs with their relationships is not as significant. So, there are so many wins that can happen when we are working together and not judging anyone in the team.

Leisa Reichelt: 21:51

Kate, you talked about the fact that you have really helped to influence the school that your daughter goes to to become less behavioral focused and more relational focused. I'm sure there are many people who are listening who would love for their school to go on that sort of transformation as well. Bearing in mind that you probably have a bit of an advantage of coming in as that sort of dual Speechy OT professional background. What are some things that you think that parents are trying to help influence their schools to make that shift could be doing?

Kate Broderick: 22:26

I think for me, I've often not tried to do the education myself, but just dropped links and helpful suggestions around courses or conferences or, trainings that would be useful for staff. So, School Can't is amazing. I love Reframing Autism, Belongside Families. I've mentioned Ross Greene now a couple of times. His not for profit Lives In The Balance, which is moving more into Australia. All of these are operating, trying to help people. There's so much out there. I know that there are resources involved in sending a staff member to a course, but, there's a lot that is high, high quality, really freely available. And so I think, just continuing to share and I guess asking for permission to invite people in to present at staff team lunches or after school huddles and things is really useful. There's two tiers as well. I think one approach is to obviously aim for the sky and go to the leaders of the school, but also, if you're in a very tight spot with your child, if you're having a really hard time, the key person is their class teacher. And maybe the whole school isn't ready for a big change, but you can really form a bond with your child's closest caregiver in that community. And as long as you can make that happen. I think you'll see a lot of powerful change in your child's life. So it will be different for everybody. But I think just continuing to share information, not necessarily for me to be standing up, and doing all that delivery, has been really helpful. I've definitely got clients who have started neurodiversity committees within the P and F in their school, I think I've had families who've shown up to the P and F meetings and spoken about the challenges that their child is having, which takes a lot of bravery, but it is making sure that its on the radar of the wider school community that not everyone's having the same experience and that there are kids in the school with different needs. That's advocacy, you know, in its purest form. Otherwise there will be money spent elsewhere and different initiatives and people just don't know if you don't have a voice. I say all that, knowing how hard it is, like I am not the parent who has the time to go to the P and F meetings. For me to get babysitters for my sensitive and neurodivergent kids is really, really difficult. So the parents that I know who've done that are really doing a huge job. It's a lot of passion, a lot of commitment, um, and a lot of effort to even show up to a P and F meeting to share a bit about your story.

Leisa Reichelt: 25:04

My son was at a school once where they had a WhatsApp group for any of the parents who could find the WhatsApp group who had kids who were struggling with school due to neurodivergence or learning difficulties or whatever the case may be. That was a bit of a game changer, just knowing that there were other parents there. But I think'cause we didn't really know each other, everyone was quite shy about just how much they would share. And it took a long time before people would go, look, my kid's been to school for three hours this week and it was Friday. And I was like, oh my God. Yes, mine too. That was good because I don't think that schools actively network struggling families together. I dunno whether that's strategically isolating them or not.

Kate Broderick: 25:47

That makes WhatsApp seem like a great, um, you know, platform for connection but as you say, when people don't know each other and you've gotta be so careful for it not to feel like it's turning into a group that's talking about the school or criticizing the school, it has to feel supportive and focused on that sort of shared lived experience and supporting each other through that.

Leisa Reichelt: 26:07

If we could connect more and then cooperatively start sharing resources with the school, I think,'cause I think that's the big message that I'm hearing from you is it's not necessarily our job to get in there and do the educating, but we can drop a lot of resources from other experts who are amazing resources and often relatively inexpensive or free to access. And just hope that schools will choose to take that up. Somebody will be attracted to it.

Kate Broderick: 26:35

If they do go, then I have had many emails over the years. Oh my goodness. I went to that conference that you recommended and Oh, I feel so lucky. And it was just the greatest thing. And, and then I see the changes happening. It's definitely not a hopeless situation, but that relationship based approach that I advocate for with regard to children applies equally to us as adults, whether or not we are parents and teachers. So, um, that's your greatest tool, again, in, in working with your school is to try and build up your relationship with them.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:06

I do wanna take a moment just to acknowledge the fact that there are plenty of people who are listening who will be in hostile engagements with their school, where a lot of the hostility is coming from the school to them, and they're like the last thing I'm feeling right now is safety in my connection with the teachers and administrators at the school. And that is definitely a thing, sadly. And I, I dunno how you get past that. I dunno if you've got any tips on that, Kate.

Kate Broderick: 27:31

I definitely wouldn't have on my dot point slide the word advocate, if I hadn't also experienced that, and I probably do experience it more in my high school students' lives. And I guess maybe because by then the behaviors are bigger and the the kids are bigger and we are not just talking about snapping a pencil, we might be throwing a whole chair across the room. Or using language that's more confronting. I know its very triggering because that makes teachers feel unsafe and it feels like behavioral consequences are warranted and like, you know, things that we can't afford not to do because it feels like we are letting kids get away with things if we don't respond. But, again, suspensions, detentions, expulsions, they don't actually help behavior. They don't. So again, just connecting back with kids and thinking about what is required to make this student feel safe in this community. I've gone to meetings for teenagers where not one single person in the entire meeting of sometimes ten professionals actually knows the child. The Head of Diverse Learning has never met them and they have looked at their photo on the file. And so, you know, in schools where things are working well, it's often that person that the student knows well and will feel comfortable to knock on that teacher's door and that their office is like a calm room that they can access when they're feeling overwhelmed. But I've definitely had students where there's no connection. And something that I do now in meetings, I will say, well, who in this room loves this child. And sometimes after a meeting, a parent will burst into tears and say, you could hear a pin drop when you asked that question. And so even when there are people who know a child, I understand that there's kind of trauma for everybody, but I can't expect this child to be going back into that environment if there is not a single person who could sort of say, yeah, I care about this child. I feel like I've got a genuine connection with them and I'm happy to be the one who meets them at the gate every day and can co-regulate with them. I've also had heartwarming stories where we've had students who maybe have had a relationship with the handyman on campus or the gardener. None of the educational staff. And we've gone great. Well, he's gonna come in and he's gonna hang out with Greg for two hours every morning. And that's where we'll get started. We know they've got an attachment instinct towards the gardener or the handyman around the campus. And then if we can get that transitioning over to other members of staff who can just widen the support network for those students, then we're gonna see that they feel safe at school. Can stay in school and then ultimately learn.'Cause I know that teachers are under a lot of pressure on that front too, and that when we have meetings, that's what they're stressing about and worried the child's not in class because they're not going to learn. But it's putting the horse before the cart when that's the conversation we're having about kids whose nervous systems are so unsafe that they can't even walk through the front gate.

Leisa Reichelt: 30:35

Kate, tell me about this book that you've been working on. It sounds delightful.

Kate Broderick: 30:38

It's not a story, but it is a beautiful picture book. But really it is just explaining these principles in very simple language. And I hope that it's a tool that will help teachers and children build that trust based relationship. As you were saying, how can a teacher do that with 20 to 30 children at one time. I have this vision of a morning ritual where we read a storybook like this book in our classroom that provides the foundation for that. It was actually inspired by a conversation I had with my son, who had said to me, I always get punished and I always get in trouble and I always, and I was so shocked hearing him say that because I was like, buddy, what are you talking about? That's not something that happens in our family, and that's not my parenting values. Those aren't the rules of the way we parent in our family. And he was like, what do you mean? And I remembered going all the way back to my earlier days doing courses in behavior. Where they would say at the start, you sit down with the kids and you say to'em, these are the rules, and I'm gonna warn you once and I'm gonna warn you twice. I'm gonna warn you three times. But in a sense, there's something about that sitting down and explaining the rules that maybe wasn't a bad idea. So I explained to him, I know that you're all good kids. I know that your behavior tells me how your nervous system's feeling, and if you're having a hard time. When you guys have a fight, I always listen to both of you and then I help both of you. It's not even, and then I decide who's wrong or right. We don't do that. We don't play judge and jury. Kids aren't really reliable at telling you exactly what happened so we just don't even do that. We just listen and validate and then discuss and find a solution that's a balance of meeting everyone's needs. After that I definitely saw him more curious and watching me to see whether or not I was living up to the rules. And if anything I said came across as a threat, which to be honest, as much as I talk about this, I can still do, especially when you feel like there's a time pressure and you might be rushing to get to school. So it does take a lot of scripting and a lot of thinking and a lot of self-monitoring for us as adults to make this shift. But, it's built trust between me and my son that he knows that that's what I'm striving for. And as I say, he can watch me and correct me and that's totally fine'cause he feels safe to do that. And so I really felt like doing something that could go into schools was the priority for kids and for teachers as well.

Leisa Reichelt: 33:02

the book, Kate, is that very much about helping teachers to articulate what the way of working in the classroom is gonna be like, so that they are reinforcing it for themselves and they're letting the kids know that as well.

Kate Broderick: 33:13

Yeah, just really we know that everybody in this classroom is different. Everybody's valuable. Also I know all kids are good and I know that you're all always trying your best. I know that your behavior tells me how you're feeling inside, and my job is to guide and look after all of you. And I might change things sometimes to keep you all feeling safe. It's got a little bit of a section of what helps your body feel safe or nervous system with a few suggestions. But I think a really important line for kids and adults as well to understand is only the child can say what's helpful to them. Also even just having a page. And if there's a day where I'm not your teacher, I'll try to make sure that the person who's here instead knows about this book. And so just keeping this idea of, you are not gonna get in trouble here. And if you are having a hard time, I want you to come to adults for help, not for discipline or consequences. Because even behaviorism is ingrained within our children. My own kids will come and say'she hit me, you need to punish her. So she learns not to do that'. And I'm like, oh my goodness, where is this coming from? That doesn't work. So kids need to learn, we go to adults not to punish other children or our peers when we think there's been an injustice. We go to adults for support and they help us and we solve problems together. And that's what it's all about. I also do think it's important that children feel like they're resting in the care of adults, as well for us to say we are leading and guiding you. And I think that that's important for teachers and parents as well to know and remember as well, is that children, that's their natural instinct to be guided by us. And when that isn't happening we need to just go back to the relationship and that can feel a little bit hard. And again, trying not to put our ego into the picture. If the child's not doing what we ask of them either, it's way, way, way outside their skillset. And that's often the case. But also, if you really think it is in their skillset and they're not doing it, well, something's not there with the relationship piece between the two of you. And that's not the child's job to fix that. It's ours as the adults every single time.

Leisa Reichelt: 35:24

That sounds like an amazing place for us to start wrapping up, Kate. If people wanted to learn more about this relational approach to parenting, to teaching, do you have any resources that you'd recommend? I know you mentioned Ross Greene multiple times, and we'll definitely pop a link to to him.

Kate Broderick: 35:45

Gordon Neufeld is amazing. He has the Neufeld Institute. Dr. Deborah McNamara is part of his team. She came out to Australia a couple of years ago and I just was blown away by every word that came out of her mouth. There are people like Mona Delahooke, Vanessa LaPointe, Maggie Dent. You can follow me at Spot Therapy Hub. I still post a lot of this content and if you've got a neurodivergent child, then I think you'll find that there's a lot of relevant stuff there. I have my social media account at KateBroderick.Official and I'll just be talking exclusively about behaviorism versus relationship based approach and have that really strong focus on supporting teachers and parents, especially for the sake of their children, but for the sake of their own wellbeing and mental health as well.

Leisa Reichelt: 36:34

Kate, just finally, if folks wanna get their hands on the book, is it available for pre-order anywhere yet?

Kate Broderick: 36:39

yeah, katebroderick.com au.

Leisa Reichelt: 36:41

Okay. Excellent. I'll pop a link in there and yeah, if people wanna get hold the book to gift to their child's teacher maybe, or

Kate Broderick: 36:50

yeah, fingers crossed next year will be full of happy little school communities making small changes that will benefit everyone.

Leisa Reichelt: 36:57

That is a good New Year's wish for us all, I think. Thank you so much, Kate, for joining us. Really, really appreciate your time and your experience and expertise.

Kate Broderick: 37:05

Oh, absolute pleasure. Thanks so much, Leisa. Bye everybody.

Leisa Reichelt: 37:09

Well, I hope you've got some inspiration and some ideas from all the stories and insight that Kate has shared with us today. I've put links to the many great resources Kate suggested in the episode notes, as well as a link to School Can't Australia, where you'll find our amazing community and many more helpful resources. If you have found our podcast helpful, I would be so grateful if you could take a moment to subscribe or give us a rating or review. This really does help us get the podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and who haven't yet found the School Can't community and all the information and support we share. And if you have some feedback for us or maybe a suggestion for a future topic or a guest, or perhaps you've been inspired to share your own lived experience story, please drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you're feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 Thanks again for listening, and we will talk again soon. Take care.