#51 - Jessica's Lived Experience

This week we welcomed Jessica, an OT and mother of two neurodivergent children, to share her lived experience of School Can’t. Jess’s eldest child experienced early anxiety and separation difficulties through escalating distress in primary school. 

Jess describes navigating borderline ADHD diagnosis, later recognising broader neurodivergence, trialling and stopping stimulants due to aggression on comedown, and finding both supportive and adverse school interactions. 

After a severe panic attack and medical leave, the family shifted to homeschooling and gradually rebuilt capacity through neurodivergent-friendly social groups, parent education (including Dr. Ross Greene’s Collaborative Proactive Solutions), and therapy. 

Jess explains how meaning-driven pathways via community school and VET led to renewed engagement, culminating in her child attending Year 12 four days a week, and she emphasizes holding hope and having Plan B/C/D options.

CONTENT WARNING:  This episode does take us to some dark places at times. Part of this interview includes discussing distressing experiences attending hospital, and also distressing interactions with some teachers. If you're a teacher, you might feel uncomfortable listening to parts of this story  as this episode deals with several adverse experiences at school, including an assault of a teacher. 

  We ask you to remember that just as Dr. Ross Greene says, kids do well if they can, we hold it to be true, that adults, including parents, teachers and medical professionals are generally doing the best that they can as well.  iIf you don't have capacity for this today, feel free to skip this one or maybe listen another time.

People & resources mentioned in this episode:

• Hub Clinic - https://hub.clinic/
• Home Education Network (HEN) - https://home-ed.vic.edu.au/
• Dr Ross Greene, Collaborative Proactive Solutions (CPS) - https://livesinthebalance.org/
• Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS) https://www.health.vic.gov.au/mental-health-services/child-and-adolescent-mental-health-services

Tuning into Kids /Teens - https://tuningintokids.org.au/parents/finding-a-tuning-in-parenting-group/

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt 0:04

Hello and welcome to the School Current Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. In our episode today, we are joined by Jessica, who is a mother of two and works as an OT supporting families who are experiencing School Can't. Jess is gonna be sharing her lived experience of School Can't with her eldest child. Our story today does take us to some dark places at times. Part of this interview includes discussing distressing experiences attending hospital, and also distressing interactions with some teachers. If you're a teacher, you might feel particularly uncomfortable listening to parts of this story. As this episode deals with several adverse experiences at school, including an assault of a teacher. We ask you to remember that just as Dr. Ross Greene says, kids do well if they can, we hold it to be true, that adults, including parents, teachers and medical professionals are generally doing the best that they can as well. So please be aware of all of that. And if you don't have capacity for that today, feel free to skip this one or maybe listen another time. Well, let's get into Jess's story. Thank you so much Jessica for joining us on our School Can't Experience podcast today. Really appreciate you sharing your time and your story. How are you doing today?

Jessica (OT) 1:38

Really good. I'm actually really excited to do this.

Leisa Reichelt 1:40

Fantastic. Alright, before we get started, let's gather a little bit of context. What do we need to know about you and your family just anything that's gonna help us understand a little bit more about you guys.

Jessica (OT) 1:52

Yeah, so, I have two kids. The oldest is 17. They're currently in year 12. And the youngest is 12 and they are in grade six this year. Both my kids are autistic. The oldest is AuDHD, so he also has an ADHD diagnosis and a couple of other less fun diagnoses. Then the youngest also has ARFID, which is an eating disorder. I am also neurodivergent, So I have ADHD come from a really big neurodivergent family and this is a mix of self-identifying and diagnosis. So we have a type of hanging out where we all do our own things together in the same room. So we have sort of that parallel play, I suppose that we do together. We also do have tasks that we really enjoy together. We're a big gaming family, both like video games and board games. And movies and things like that.

Leisa Reichelt 2:45

Uh, Jessica, we're gonna talk about your eldest child today, I think, aren't we? The one that's in year 12.

Jessica (OT) 2:51

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 2:52

Where does this story start, do you think?

Jessica (OT) 2:54

Look, it does actually start at the beginning, really. My son had quite a tricky time in kinder, and needed a lot of support. And so we were not sure if he would make it to school the next year. And we did a lot of work around that. He had a really supportive teacher. The school he went to was really supportive and so he did actually transition really well, and we were all a bit shocked.

Leisa Reichelt 3:18

What were the kinds of things that were tricky.

Jessica (OT) 3:19

Separation.

Leisa Reichelt 3:20

Okay.

Jessica (OT) 3:21

Separation and transitions. And some social stuff. So he did sort of find his bestie, like a little friend. And so that kind of helped. And then we worked on a lot of transition routines and things like that and making him feel comfortable. was a very anxious little person and, that became apparent. So there was a lot of anxiety about certain things. And some friendship dynamics. And we go to the teacher, the prep teacher who was excellent and say, oh, this is going on. She'd come up with a strategy and it worked. And so there were little things along the way, I can tell you. Looking back, I go, oh, okay. But in the moment with a school that had support and structure. And a teacher that was good. Basically the first two teachers. We got through that. We moved house at the end of his prep year. And so then we moved into a new school which we thought sounded really good. And so we were like, what are our goalposts, his wellbeing, his transitioning to school is really important. We had a few concerns around literacy, reading, and when we brought those, they were like, oh, they're the strongest reader in the grade. And I thought, Ooh, if my kid's the strongest reader in the grade, what's going on here? Retrospectively I know it's because of what happened in prep and grade one, but yeah. And then we kind of moved into grade three and that's when the wheels really fell off.

Leisa Reichelt 4:36

Do we know that your eldest was neuro divergent at this point? No.

Jessica (OT) 4:42

No. They got diagnosed at 12 or 13.

Leisa Reichelt 4:45

Okay.

Jessica (OT) 4:45

Their younger sibling got diagnosed at three, so,

Leisa Reichelt 4:50

What about you?

Jessica (OT) 4:52

me, 39. Yeah. Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt 4:55

Before or after the kids?

Jessica (OT) 4:57

after,

Leisa Reichelt 4:58

Of course,

Jessica (OT) 4:59

after. So what happened was, the younger sibling has a very stereotypical presentation of autism. Yeah. External, Didn't talk,

Leisa Reichelt 5:10

Okay.

Jessica (OT) 5:10

Very stereotypical meltdowns, all of that kind of stuff. They accessed therapy from 18 months and we started looking from a diagnosis at around, I reckon around three. So at this stage, my oldest is eight, and this is when their behaviour goes off the charts. So this is happening at the same time. I remember thinking, this is what I expected from a teenager. Slamming the door. I hate you. This kind of explosive stuff. And I was like, what is this? So we were accessing support for our youngest and then so we started accessing support for our oldest. And we were going in saying, look, we're going through diagnosis with their little brother. We're not sure if this is just causing stress. We're not sure what's going on. But we wanna make sure they're supported. Some of the things we accessed for their little brother were the opposite of helpful and that would've impacted him as well. And we went into everything going, you know, their younger siblings autistic, could they be autistic? They've got two cousins who were diagnosed autistic at this stage. Anyway, so I was like, there's likely neuro divergence. So we would go into health professionals saying, this is our profile. What do you think? We are concerned. But my eldest has an internalised profile and the bit that was very obvious on the surface is the ADHD, which is okay. So yeah, big explosive behaviour. All of this stuff happening at home. We are going to school saying we are concerned. School says basically, you're a nervous, anxious Mum. You dunno what you're talking about. For about six months.

Leisa Reichelt 6:37

Because he was fine At school.

Jessica (OT) 6:39

Yeah, Perfectly fine. And then he started acting out at school.

Leisa Reichelt 6:44

Yeah. Okay.

Jessica (OT) 6:45

And so we got to about halfway through that year and we're thinking, okay, we're gonna move them. We've just moved them into this school, but we cannot sustain this. So we were accessing help from the clinical psychologist. we got a referral through, Department of Ed to have cognitive testing done.'cause the clinical psychologist said to me, kids aren't anxious for no reason, Jess, what's going on? Which was good advice. She also was like, you know, let's consider all the options. So we had a WISC and a WIAT done, took a while, but like done through school, which was great. And we put him on the list for an OT. And things just kept deteriorating at that school. We'd get calls, we'd get emails. He came home from school and he got a permanent marker and he defaced his whole school jumper. and I said, Oh mate, what happened? Did you do that in the playground or whatever? He said, no, I did that in maths. And so I sent an email, and this is a school where we weren't allowed to contact the teachers directly. So I sent an email to the admin person saying, Hey, this thing happened with my kid. He's telling me it happened in maths. Do you mind forwarding it to all the grade three teachers?'cause they're all in the room because I just want a bit more information. And so, his teacher replied back to me and said, Jess, you should get him to clean it. And I was like, I'm not after parenting advice, I would like to know why my child sat in a class for up to what, 45 minutes? with a permanent marker at a desk. And was so disengaged from the learning that he destroyed his school jumper. That's what I wanna know about. So that kind of was coming to a head. And so we started looking at schools in the area. We looked at seven schools. Some we toured more than once. Some told us, don't come here.

Leisa Reichelt 8:21

Because,

Jessica (OT) 8:22

They couldn't support.

Leisa Reichelt 8:24

okay.

Jessica (OT) 8:25

I know they're not allowed to say this,

Leisa Reichelt 8:26

Hmm.

Jessica (OT) 8:28

But part of me was like, I prefer to know this than come here and you guys fail us. I remember one of them said, what other schools you're looking at? And we listed and they said, we'd suggest that one. They're gonna be better able to support your young person.

Leisa Reichelt 8:41

The school that you were currently going to, what was their strategy?

Jessica (OT) 8:45

Oh, Fix him. Fix him.

Leisa Reichelt 8:46

Oh, you had to fix him.

Jessica (OT) 8:48

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 8:49

You fix him and then everything will be fine.

Jessica (OT) 8:51

Yes, he's your problem. He's causing all these problems. You fix him,

Leisa Reichelt 8:54

That's really interesting, isn't it? And I think also when it's your first child going through this experience, you have nothing to compare it to, do you? No you

Jessica (OT) 9:02

one public school in one area to another, and completely contrasting experiences. And then, so we actually moved them to the local Catholic school. And they were like, we will help your child regardless of the diagnosis, regardless of what's going on. And we were like, right, our kid has to go to this school. And we just fought to get them in there, which they did. that was a good choice. The teacher we had for that would've been grade four now, was excellent. And just like the general classroom and structure was amazing. There was no chaos. Kids had desks, they had bag lockers. I remember my son coming home and saying, oh, Mum, Miss has, you know, the thing you have for, for my little brother, a time timer, she had a time timer on the board.

Leisa Reichelt 9:45

Oh wow.

Jessica (OT) 9:45

And they had this thing called Catchup Day. So there was a time in the week where if they had tasks, they hadn't quite finished off, they could just finish them off with no pressure. And my young person was having trouble keeping up, and really liked that. And so we emailed straight away'cause we're like a teacher, you can email directly. So I emailed early on saying, Hey, this is where we're at. We are new. I said, we've just had, like, a WISC and a WIAT done. We've had a DASH done. We've had all of this workup done. We're on the pathway of maybe ADHD We just want you to know. And so they invited us into a meeting within a week and responded in 24 hours.

Leisa Reichelt 10:23

Super quickly, you've mentioned the WISC and the WIAT a couple of times just in case there's somebody who's listening who's not sure what that is?

Jessica (OT) 10:29

Yep. So, a WISC is an IQ test basically. So it shows the cognitive profile of a child and it'll show areas of strength and weakness or comparative weakness. So sometimes if you have a really bright kid, one of their skills might be considered average, but for them, that is, a weakness for them because, they're really exceptionally so they can feel it. And lots of kids like mine and kids like this have what we call spiky profiles. So our processing speed might be low average, but our fluid reasoning, which is our problem solving might be on like the 98th percentile. So these are kids who experience a lot of difficulty because they're so bright, but they're also really struggling. Yeah. So, and then the WIAT is more about academic performance. So they look at more like reading, literacy, maths. And so the comparison of the child's capacity, which is the WISC versus how they perform, which is the WIAT, sometimes shows areas of things like dyslexia, dysgraphia, or any SLD Specific Learning Difficulty or ADHD or, even autism to a certain extent. Because you'd be like, this kid is really bright, they're really gifted, but they're not performing well and that's what's going on. So, those, tools that can be really helpful. And then a DASH is a particular type of handwriting assessment. So it looks at speed. When it's done as part of a broader handwriting assessment we look at other factors as well. So we look at things like their fine motor skills, their attention, how did they go with generating the ideas and all of that kind of stuff. So we had had all of this sort of stuff done right at the end of grade three. And then kind of went into grade four with, this is where we're at.

Leisa Reichelt 12:09

Yeah.

Jessica (OT) 12:09

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 12:10

Excellent. All right, and did you get the ADHD diagnosis at that time?

Jessica (OT) 12:16

That year

Leisa Reichelt 12:17

Yeah, but not autism yet.

Jessica (OT) 12:19

very borderline. So even the ADHD was very borderline.

Leisa Reichelt 12:22

Oh.

Jessica (OT) 12:22

The initial presentation, and I think this is as the teacher was doing a really good job. She couldn't see it. And it was very internal. So we got to the pediatrician and because we'd done a lot of the stuff they recommend by the time we got there, we kind of got fast tracked. And at that point, the anxiety and the ADHD markers were both borderline and they literally said to us, what do you wanna do? Which is a really scary thing as a parent. Their advice to me was the ADHD could be causing the anxiety or the anxiety could be causing the attentional problems, and we don't know. So, then we weighed it up and so we decided to look at trialing simulants because it's easy and it's quick and you can stop them straight away. And my gut feeling was that and this is the thing the first psychologist says to us is kids are not anxious for no reason. I was like, they're not anxious for no reason. So we trialed stimulants. And that was really interesting because even the teacher didn't notice a big difference. So the things that we saw were written expression, all of a sudden they could write more. So that was the main change at school. Everything else was the same. They were on the local basketball team. And they always hung back. We were like, oh. They're a bit nervous or whatever. They couldn't follow the play. They couldn't follow the ball. So they took, because we gave, stimulants in the morning, they could play the game. And we were like, oh my God. And so when we gave that feedback to the pediatrician, they were like, Oh no, this is a hundred percent ADHD. The fact that you have a child who basically hung back and didn't get in there, and now is following the ball, chasing the ball, knowing where to be is a sign. So that was sort of our pathway to get it sort of signed off. And for a while that was enough. So we had medication, we had regular psychology, we had OT, we had supportive teachers at a supportive school. We rolled into grade five. That was all going well until about halfway through the year, and my child got really depressed. And we couldn't really find a reason for it, if that makes sense. And at this point I worked with adults, so I didn't know what depression looked like in kids, but I knew what it looked like in adults and I thought, this looks like depression to me. And so we went back to the pediatrician and I said, I'm really concerned about the mood. And they basically didn't offer us anything. And I was like, I don't know what to do here. So in the mix of this, our other child was diagnosed as autistic, was doing early intervention. So we got a recommendation for a pediatrician from the OT that we saw and saw him around this time, and he was phenomenal. And we were like, our other kid is coming here. but it took us a while to get him in. Meanwhile, he wasn't going so well at school. So we started, the teacher, he had that year again amazing. And we were at Catholic schools. You apply for high school in grade five. So we were in that process and I went to the teacher and I said, what accommodations does she need? And she says, I'm not doing anything different for him. And I was like, I really need you to think about what a normal school looks like.

Leisa Reichelt 15:20

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica (OT) 15:21

classroom looks like, because you are. And then I described some of the things we had done at other schools and she was like, oh yeah. would be like, oh, if he wants to sit on the floor to type on the Chromebook, he can. I'm like, yeah, okay. So that's an accommodation. So we had a very lovely, very intuitive teacher who was just doing it all. That was a problem in the fact,'cause we needed her to write it, we needed her to say, these are all the things I'm doing. So that was a bit of a funny experience and

Leisa Reichelt 15:50

Well, I can kind of relate to that though as well Like when you have your division parents. With neurodivergent kids like you, you just, you're just doing life, right? But you don't realize how you are doing life differently in a way that's really supportive of that neurodivergent kids experience. And so when people are like, you know what, what does this child need? You're just like, I know he gets on all right. But actually, we don't turn the big lights on and we eat porridge all the time. And it's like all of these things that we do,

Jessica (OT) 16:19

a really common experience when, people take their kid to go through diagnosis.'cause a lot of the parent interview stuff is really expecting you to know what neurotypical development looks like and how your child or person is different. And if you are either identified or diagnosed or unidentified, neuro divergent parent of neurodivergent, don't know.

Leisa Reichelt 16:38

Massive blind spot, it's a massive blind spot.

Jessica (OT) 16:41

the most useful thing someone said to me, and I've given this advice to lots of people, was and this was for my youngest who had a much easier presentation to describe was, get a piece of paper or your notes app or whatever, and just start writing down all the weird things they do that you think are a bit weird. And I know that sounds really funny, but it was like, I can't go through the spinny door at the pool because it's too stressful. I have to make sure the shoes go on correctly the first time and you just start listening all of these things that, just seem a bit odd or whatever. So when we went into those appointments, I was like, this is my list. And they were like, okay, have you thought about autism? And I think that's really helpful because we are so in the thick of it we're just surviving. And if we're doing a relatively good job as parents or teachers or whatever, we are just accommodating on the fly.

Leisa Reichelt 17:28

Yeah,

Jessica (OT) 17:28

we're doing all

Leisa Reichelt 17:29

even think about it.

Jessica (OT) 17:30

But you do really sometimes to advocate for people and to help with stuff. You do sometimes have to think, wait a minute. How many hours did I spend picking that piece of food and making sure I went to three supermarkets? Like I remember there was a thing around chips for a while, and I remember seeing families in my local group for autism support going, does anyone know where I can get this brand of chips? My kid does not eat without them. And people all trying to search for them. That's the stuff that's different that's hard to know unless there's a chip crisis, do you know what I mean? Like, because it happens.

Leisa Reichelt 18:05

Absolutely. Okay, so we're in year five.

Jessica (OT) 18:08

yeah. So very depressed. Got to the new pediatrician in sort of December finally and went in and beautiful. Can I name who this is or not, I don't know.

Leisa Reichelt 18:20

I don't, I think if you're saying nice things, it doesn't matter.

Jessica (OT) 18:23

Okay, so my kids, go to Hub Clinic, which is Dr. Paul Joffe. Paul openly says there's a reason I do this kind of work. There's a reason I work with kids like this. So, he looked like a cool, sporty dude with skateboards. He's got a bit of a beard. He looked very like my kid's uncle and he's like, Hey mate, we just gonna have a chat, man to man and all of this sort of stuff. And I was like, what is this? so he was great and my kid opened up to him and then we went in together. Then he spoke to him separately and then he brought me on my own. And I said, I'm really concerned about his mood. I really think he's depressed. I don't know what this looks like, but I can see this and that and that, and listed it all off. And he said, you are right. He's depressed. And I was like, oh. And then he said, what's wrong? And I said, you know, my biggest fear is that he won't make it to adulthood. And he said something along the lines of, that's really valid. And he said, but what we're gonna do is we're gonna write that down on a piece of paper and then we're gonna put it in a ball and throw it in the bin.'cause we're not gonna let that happen here. So very validating, but also like, I've got you. I've got you guys and this is not gonna happen to you and your family. And so we started, antidepressant medication that summer and had an amazing turn around and we were like, oh my god, thank You know? and then we rolled into grade six, and this is 2020, we are in Melbourne. And, my kid had school refusal within two weeks of starting grade six. And the factor, and this was the teacher, causing harm to my kid in class by micromanaging them, over everything. And, prompting and prompting and prompting and prompting and prompting and prompting and prompting. And we know with kids with ADHD, they get more negative feedback than regular kids. And if they've also got slow processing, by the time those prompts land, it's bombardment. And so this is what was happening. And so I was saying, Hey. It's like you're speaking French to him. And trying to advocate and trying to explain. And then he wasn't doing the reading homework log. He was doing reading. The teacher before said, if you tell me he's doing reading, I don't care about the log. So I went in saying, Hey look, he's not doing the log, but he's doing the reading and doing the log. This is such a PDA thing, is stopping him from reading. What could we do? And the teacher was like, oh, he can just not do the homework. And I was like, no, no, no, no. I would like him to learn the skills he's going to year seven next year. What? What could this be? Could we have a template? Could we have this? Could we have this? At that point, my kid was flagged for probably dysgraphia. as well. And handwriting, like we'd done a year of handwriting practice, it was actually genuinely difficult for him to, actually fill this log out. And he was reading and I was like, no, we can make this work. So there was, that teacher was like, it's either the way everyone else does it, or we just drop it and we don't do it at all. And this is where I think my background was like, no, no, no. there's space in between it, there's accommodations here. And I was still working with adults at this point. I was like, no, no. And then he started refusing to go to school and running away from home and having really big meltdowns. And unfortunately the younger sibling was starting prep that year. And so a lot of energy going into that and probably not my oldest.

Leisa Reichelt 21:41

Yeah,

Jessica (OT) 21:42

sadly. And then, so I contacted the OT at the clinic where my youngest was going, and I just said, I just need help with this. And they advocated heavily. So the wheels had fallen off before the lockdown. If anything, the lockdown saved my child because we got them out of that environment, which, I know was not the same for lots of young people, but it got them out of this environment with this teacher who was undermining their confidence and making them stressed and overwhelmed. So they had about two weeks of stress overwhelm, not wanting to go, and then they just started acting out. So they did stuff like boot the teacher off the Google classroom so they couldn't see their work. They very resourceful young

Leisa Reichelt 22:24

Bless. I know I'm kind of cheering for them. Really.

Jessica (OT) 22:26

Defiant would be the the thing. So we went from anxious, trying really hard and then realizing, trying really hard wasn't gonna get them anywhere to defiant in about two weeks

Leisa Reichelt 22:36

Wow.

Jessica (OT) 22:37

We got them out of that dynamic with that teacher. then we had their OT start to advocate on what home learning should look like, what the task should be, not overwhelming them and all of this kind of stuff. But you know, also lockdown is not good for your mental health. So they broke their arm in the first week, which meant they couldn't do any physical activity. That really started to impact them. Then they started to have quite explosive behaviour. We ended up under CAMHS. So initially it was under their program that's more about parent support. You do it for like six weeks and then things deteriorated to a point we had to call triage, had to present it to ED. We actually stopped all stimulant medications because when they had the come down, they had aggression every time, like we could time it. So we withdrew all the stimulants, which was helpful to manage that, but not helpful in terms of you know, the other things my young person needed. So, there was a lot of medication stuff going on. And so my young person eventually ends up in ED, um, and has a really traumatic experience. Now I work in a hospital, I understand why they've done that. I get it. But my kid still has trauma from this. Yeah. And we went there for help. Like now I think me and the kids' dad can deescalate anything, which was so much work on this and probably wouldn't get to that point. But, at that point we didn't and we were like, this is what the help we need. I, I think calling an ambulance would've been better'cause I think either, they would've come and it would've happened at the home. Or if they needed to transfer them, they would've come in differently. One of the good things that happened after that was that they created a special plan for him. So that would never happen again. That's on his file that exists forever. And that helped us'cause we were like, we cannot have trauma from trying to get help.

Leisa Reichelt 24:23

Right.

Jessica (OT) 24:24

And they were horrified. So like, they were also really upset. And look, you know, this is in 2020 and hospitals were stressed and overloaded and short staffed and staff reacted to things they wouldn't normally, I'd give them all that, but it didn't change the outcome for my kid. And it still comes up. They were eleven. They're 17 now. So they did transition to high school. They wanted to do it the way everyone else does, bus to and from, like everything. That lasted for two weeks. And then they had an incident with a teacher where they got quite aggressive, which had never happened outside of home before. So then we decided to put them on a modified timetable. We said, look, realistically they haven't been to full-time school for a whole year. Let's reduce the demands. And so school were all on board were excellent, did that. Then we had an incident with a teacher where my child assaulted a teacher. That happened because of mismanagement. So what had happened was, they had got dysregulated from a class. They were having trouble exiting. So they had a break card, we call it the get out of jail free card. That's what the OT calls it. But was so activated, they couldn't do it. So the classroom teacher made the decision to say, look, you need to go. So they arced up over that, which is pretty common. You've got a kid in fight or flight, but you know, the teacher's doing their best job. Eventually they exit the classroom. The person who was meant to help with support, there was like three of them. None of them available that day. Of course. Perfect storm. So a nice young, well meaning teacher, something's going on. Remembers my kid from camp. so look, I will, hats off to them for trying thought, oh, you know, I'll help. The thing they did was the opposite of helpful. They escalated my kid and the thing that completely set them off was, and again, this was from a place of needing to help, they said, I'm gonna give your Mum a call. My kid heard

Leisa Reichelt 26:18

I am in trouble.

Jessica (OT) 26:18

I'm calling your Mum. My kid tried to stop them from making a phone call and injured them. Then nicked off. So this is almost the end of the day. And so they actually didn't know if he was still on the grounds. So I get a call from the homeroom teacher saying, and I'm sitting in the car, waiting to pick them up from the train. And, like, oh, Jess, just gimme a call. Just wondering, we just wanna let you know this is what's happened. And so the teacher who had actually been injured was there, and they were really genuinely concerned. So look, you know, it came from a nice spot. It just was terrible management. but they wanted to make sure they're okay. And I said, oh, I've got their message they're on the train. I'm picking them up. So I am like, as far as I know, that was fine. Anyway, so I got them home. They were very dysregulated. I said, oh, how are things going? No talking in the car. And then I get the phone call from the higher up person at school saying, look, so I've reviewed the footage and that matches with what was described. And I remember breaking down. I was like, what? know, we're trying everything. I don't know what to do. And that person said to me, you know what, sometimes these kids, year seven and eight are the worst years.

Leisa Reichelt 27:24

Yeah, they're pretty shit.

Jessica (OT) 27:27

hardest

Leisa Reichelt 27:28

Mm.

Jessica (OT) 27:28

they said, we've had kids like this before and it does actually get better. So holding hope, I think it was really good for parents. And they did do that, for us. Then they said, so what normally happens is it's an in-school suspension, but your young person is gonna react so poorly to that, let's just do it at home. And then we have our, well, I can't remember what they call the meeting. And we got there and my young person's almost under the table. at this meeting and they were very kind and very supportive and they said things like, we really want you here. We wanna make sure we do everything to have you here. We really like you. Stuff that I think, is important for young people to get, particularly when something like is gone wrong. So there was a repair between the teacher that got assaulted and this person. And then we had on the care plan, do not say, I'm gonna call Mum because it was a threat. And that's what I said. It wasn't meant to be a threat. It was a threat. there were other incidents that happened that were much more minor. That most of the time when we followed these up with the people, they said, oh yeah, that shouldn't have happened. We'll fix it. Quite a responsive school. But, at the end of the day, not the right fit for my young person. So they struggled with the nine subjects, the nine teachers, the 45 minute periods, just the complexity of high school

Leisa Reichelt 28:43

High school is really, really intense.

Jessica (OT) 28:46

Particularly year seven and year eight. They actually are the hardest years because you don't get to pick what you do.

Leisa Reichelt 28:51

Mm-hmm.

Jessica (OT) 28:51

You don't have a lot of control. You just have to kind of learn everything and it's hard. So that all happened and then we kind of, finished off the end of that year and sorted all of this out. They were on a modified timetable, had a lot of accommodations, got some better teachers. Some of the ones we had the most difficulty ended up in leaving the school. So I dunno if there was other factors. Who knows? But all of this came to a head. They were walking from where I would work to school, which was nice and close, and had a massive dissociative panic attack for half an hour on the way to school. Rang me and they're like, I don't know what's going on. I dunno where I'm, I was like, what do you mean? Luckily, you know, like lots of parents, we have like a, an app. Worked out where they were. Called Dad and said, can you come? And we took him straight to ED'cause we were like, did he get assaulted? Did he have a seizure?'cause he found himself on the ground. So got him all checked out and they said, this is a really bad panic attack. Had an urgent pediatrician appointment. Same thing. And so my young person said, what if it happens again, mum? What if I'm walking to school and this happens again? And we couldn't say it wouldn't. We'd had different types of school, not refusal, but like, you know, difficulty getting there. Bad mornings, mornings where we'd have to change the plans. And this is with all the supports, all the accommodations, all the supportive teachers, And so we went, right. So we got a medical certificate for four weeks and said, we're just gonna have to see what happens. Very quickly realized that four weeks is not enough to recover from this. And then went back to the pediatrician and said, no way can we get them back to school. And they said, that's fine. I'll keep writing certificate, but you need a plan. I'm like, okay. So we went back to school and said, look, they're not returning, But we don't know what we're gonna do. They were very lovely about all of this. Then we had joined the School Can't parent group by that point and I put a thing in saying, this is our situation. Do we look at part-time distance ed or do we look at homeschooling? We have to have them enrolled. They're in year eight. We can't have them unenrolled until they're 17. We know they're not gonna go back to school. We have been learning about unschooling prior to that because we were looking at a change of schools'cause we could see the writing was on the wall. And so we were looking at like, maybe community school is a better option. And then we were like, actually there's no school right now. And we ended up homeschooling. And the first iteration of that was they needed to leave the house once a week. And that initially was just going in the car. So like they would get in my car, I would drive to the local shops and get like two things and come back and that's all they could cope with. And so we removed all the screen limits, we removed everything. We were just like, they've gotta survive, they've gotta be safe. We are very, very lucky that dad's work never went back to the office full time. And that a teenager, as long as they're safe to do so, can be left home alone.

Leisa Reichelt 31:50

Yeah.

Jessica (OT) 31:50

So I shifted my work hours. I was working privately for someone else and just said, oh, instead of doing one full day, I'm doing two afternoons or two mornings or something. Kept working and we just kind of hodgepodge something together. And then started to get bored. And we were like, Ooh, this is a sign. Things are going well.

Leisa Reichelt 32:12

Hmm.

Jessica (OT) 32:12

we progressed to going to the cafe and eventually ordering the same order from the person who got to know them. so there was some other stuff going on in the mix. and so then we started reaching out to all the home schooly stuff going. What do people do? We dunno what to do. They need something. We dunno what it is.

Leisa Reichelt 32:28

Yeah. Like as in, in terms of like more learning or,

Jessica (OT) 32:32

Just something,

Leisa Reichelt 32:33

yeah.

Jessica (OT) 32:34

We're like,

Leisa Reichelt 32:34

yeah.

Jessica (OT) 32:35

We can see their capacities improve. So it would've been about three months of just literally nothing. And then they were getting bored and lonely, so we're like, we've gotta find something. And the OT said, Yeah. I can see it too. So then we happened to reach out to a bunch of different things on Facebook. Someone said, oh, I'm running this group. It's on a Monday. It's like 45 minutes from my house. But was like, well that may be okay. then I remember messaging them and saying, so my kid's really anxious and dad will need to stay and like, you know, all the parameters, And she said, that's really fine. But just so you know, so is everyone. So was everyone in these groups? Don't worry about it.

Leisa Reichelt 33:11

Fit right in.

Jessica (OT) 33:12

thing.

Leisa Reichelt 33:13

Yeah.

Jessica (OT) 33:13

all neurodivergent, they're all anxious. they're like, this is normal and parents hang around. And of course they can leave whenever they want. Anyway, it went really, really well to the point where some of those kids were doing something else in the same week and they're like, will we see you on Friday? And my kid was like, I'd love to go. When Friday came around, they didn't have energy for it, which is. Fine. but that really started everything for us. So then, that became their thing. So they would do that on a Monday. Then they started going to the Friday group and then, one of the parents in these circles, had a teen formal and I was like, there's no way in hell my kid would go to this. So I hadn't even discussed it with them and then had, had come up and so they came to us and said, why aren't I doing this? So they went to the homeschool teen formal.

Leisa Reichelt 33:57

Wow.

Jessica (OT) 33:59

And

Leisa Reichelt 33:59

so cute.

Jessica (OT) 34:00

There's all these photos of them dancing and having a great time. And we were like, what is going on? And so then by the end of year eight, year nine, we are like, right, we homeschool now. And we reached out to friends who had skills. And the HEN stuff is amazing. Like we used all of that so

Leisa Reichelt 34:16

Yeah.

Jessica (OT) 34:17

we tried some formal stuff, didn't go well, But we also just didn't care. We're just like, none if this matters, we just wanna try everything. And so, we homeschooled them for the next year and we built up their activities and experiences. We did hit burnout. Because, the goal was that we would build up their activities until they said, oh, that's enough. My kid didn't know when enough was. So we've done lots of interoceptive work over the last couple of years,

Leisa Reichelt 34:45

Happens to the best of us. Let's be fair.

Jessica (OT) 34:47

We can all push ourselves too hard. And we did have a bit of a burnout phase and we did have to drop everything back again. My young person is the young person you can push till they break. And we inadvertently did this to them at least twice. And so we have to have learned and have to hold it for them and go, Hey, I'm actually gonna make this decision. That's too much for you. And sometimes that's not well received and other times they go, yeah, thanks. But, it's been collaborative and it's been years of work. We also went through really good, parent education around Dr. Ross Greene, the Collaborative Proactive Solutions. We did all of that work. That changed my family's life and trajectory. I am now trained in that. I could about that endlessly. it literally did change my family's life.

Leisa Reichelt 35:34

In a nutshell, why, how,

Jessica (OT) 35:37

It gives you permission to not care about everything. That's the first thing.'cause sometimes when you're in survival mode, you are not focusing on the wrong things, you're just focusing on everything. It gives you really clear permission to pick even one, like, you don't have to do three. One problem in your family And just put all your energy and effort at that for a bit. So that is really good. It's good for when you're time poor. It's good. if you've got two parents because you're on the same page. my kids dad and I are separated now, but we still do parent work together. We've done parent work together for six years. Parent work has changed our family. Because you have to be on the same page. You have to know what's going on. And even if one of you has skills in one area, so like I'm really good with one particular thing with one kid. They're really good at another thing with another kid. So I'm like, yeah, it's your one. you do that one, I'll do this. And we can divvy it up, like that. But we have the same language to discuss this.

Leisa Reichelt 36:29

When you say parent work, what does that mean?

Jessica (OT) 36:32

Okay, so we've done both formal and informal parent work. So initially it was through CAMHS. And then we sort of ran with that on our own. We also then have done Tuning Into Kids, Tuning Into Teens, which is around emotional coaching. So I think, yeah, the parent work has made a big difference, to my family stability and safety and conflict

Leisa Reichelt 36:55

All right, Jess. We need to get from year nine to year 12. Somehow. OK,

Jessica (OT) 36:59

So we homeschooled full time and then we started doing some like TAFE taster type stuff during the homeschooling. And I went to one that was a barista one. And this is funny'cause my kid doesn't like coffee and I do. So they still hold that I wanted them to do it and not them, they did it. but afterwards I said, do you know there's a type of learning like this where you do some theory and you do some practice and this is what it looks like? And they said no. And I said, did you wanna look at this? So we, then wanted to enroll them in VET. So in Victoria you can't be a homeschooler who does VET. So this is Vocational Education and Training for high schools. So, we went into some of the groups and asked, and we had a, a friend of a friend, basically enrolled in a school part-time to access the VET program. I was like, maybe we can do that. So my kid, accessed local community school part-time. They were going to attend the VET day and one core day. So this is, VCE VM or VCAL in Victoria. From year 10, with the goal that if they wanted to, they could do all of this over three years. So start year 10, have a focus. it was tricky and we got a lot of support, but my kid was really motivated and so they did animal studies, they love animals, they wanted to be there. And so, you know, this was sort of the beginning. And we also went into it going worst case scenario we is to go back to homeschooling. Like there was no pressure or stress for the us to make this work. Whereas every other school transition, so by this time, this is the fifth school, and if we include homeschooling, it's the sixth. It had to work for us. I had to work, we needed the money, we had all of this pressure and we were like, we've changed our whole lives so it works or it doesn't. So that helped. the school itself were really good. The people were really good, very respectful. So like if my kid couldn't get out of the car in the morning, they would say, would it help if we come and say hi? I'd go, nah, not today. And they're like, sure. So really, really good with this stuff. It's a school for kids like this. And so they were able to get to two days for most of that year. Sometimes a third. Then last year was year 11. So they did three days. Finished their certificate. That's all done now. Did their supported workplace learning at a local place? It went so well. So what we found is by the end of last year, their capacity was so big. So they were going to school two or three days a week. They had regular therapy between Psych and OT. They were going to work experience, they had to get up at 6:30 in the morning.

Leisa Reichelt 39:34

Wow.

Jessica (OT) 39:34

this is a kid, we struggled to get to school at 9:30. They got up, they set their alarm, they got up every morning at

Leisa Reichelt 39:40

Wow.

Jessica (OT) 39:41

2 days a week because it had meaning, it had purpose, it was worth it to them. This is what they wanted to do. And yeah, they were tired. That takes us into finishing up the end of last year and us going, what if he went to school full time? And so we talked about it. I said, would you go full-time next year? Now full-time, because he's already done his VET days, four days, 9:30 to 2:45. And he still has appointments, so that means he would skip a little bit of school for appointments. And he was like, Yeah. all right, I'll give it a go. We rolled into this year, and so he's gone to school full time now. He goes four days a week. When we went to the engagement meeting before school starts to talk about the goals and all of this, I said, oh, you know, and he's coming four days this year. And they were like, oh, we're so excited to have you here. They were like, this is gonna be so good because you are one of the people who speaks up in class and because our Year 12s left last year, you are gonna be one of the really good contributors. We're so excited you are here. And so, you know, we found a space that for some kids would not work at all. And academically, it's a bit boring. I'll be honest. He's could handle more challenge, but has enough of the things he needs to succeed there, to feel respected. They have a very, what I would call almost an adult learning approach. So someone giving him the respect and autonomy to act adult-like means he has the capacity to do so. So we've been really lucky that this has been a space that's really worked for him, but it's only because there's been no pressure for it to succeed. And also that, he's wanted it, like he's wanted this, he wanted to do that certificate. He wanted to be at that school. You know, if they're regulated enough, they're well enough, have capacity, all of those things would come first. They really can do it. They really can go, yep, this is what I want and can be supported to achieve that. And I think that's what we have seen. And I think, you know, the work I do, you know, families come with school issues, I work with kids with School Can't as well. And sometimes I'm like, how long before you wanna call this school? Like, you know, where's your threshold for this is not worth it anymore to me or my child's mental health. Where's your point where this is not tenable for you anymore? Because I think a lot of us, and I did this the first time, we pushed past that point,

Leisa Reichelt 42:02

Oh God, absolutely.

Jessica (OT) 42:05

because I didn't know there was an alternative.

Leisa Reichelt 42:08

No. And because I think you are afraid or I was afraid of how disruptive that whole process would be and what if we get to the other side of the disruption and it's no better.

Jessica (OT) 42:18

Yeah, there's a lot of fear. I think there's a lot of fear. and also just like, people know we've moved to homeschooling. So people who are like on the cusp, we'll call and go, oh, Jess. I've just started thinking about it and I was like, yeah, let's talk about it. People did this with us, from those groups, those lovely Facebook groups. What could it look like? And where is the point where you think we may need to exit if we have to? And if we don't get to that point, amazing. I'm really pleased to hear that. If we can fix all the problems, that's great, we do need to have a plan in place for your young person, just in case.

Leisa Reichelt 42:51

It's good for you as a parent, isn't it, to know that there's a Plan B and a plan C and a plan D, that are also okay.

Jessica (OT) 42:58

and it's also to say like, some of my families say, there's no way I could homeschool. I'm like, cool, let's take that off the cards. Let's not even discuss that one. What else could we do? Because some families don't have the personal capacity, financial, like I know homeschooling can be cheap, but it means, me, I've changed my career about four times. It means challenges financially for lots of people. So, I'm completely agree that it's not the right setting for everyone. Some people need to be out of the house and, yeah, and it's same with Distance Ed, not necessarily the right setting, but, I'm like, well, what are our options here? What will we try? Would we just take some time off school? The thing about getting a medical certificate, we get clients to do this a lot. I'm like, just let's get a medical certificate. and The reality is, if your person is really in that phase of School Can't, where literally they do not go to school, there is no difference between doing it with a medical certificate or not, except that we don't have to stress about it. The young person doesn't have to stress, so they actually get a rest. Taking a break doesn't mean not going back. That's what people think. And this is the conversation I have with families. Taking a break doesn't mean not going back to school in any setting. It doesn't mean not going back to that school.

Leisa Reichelt 44:10

And it doesn't necessarily mean falling behind either. I think we have this narrative about falling behind, but actually for most subjects, that's kind of not how it works.

Jessica (OT) 44:19

Well, the thing I have learnt. Is that schools teach sort of like little bit, little bit, little bit, little bit. So for some people if you miss a little bit, it is hard to catch up. But the way most neurodivergent brains learn is not like this. So if they do a deep dive into a concept, they can cover maybe a term worth in a day. So, this is something where homeschooling or, other alternative models work better you can do that and then they can maybe go deeper in more detail.

Leisa Reichelt 44:49

Jess, so if there are people who are listening who are like, your eldest sounds a little bit like my kiddo, and you wanted to just give them one thing to take away, you've already given them about 3 million things to take away.

Jessica (OT) 45:03

It can and it will get better and to hold hope, even in the worst parts, even in the most horrific situations. It can and it will. And it does feel like yeah, nothing will change or you'll be in this situation forever. We definitely had those moments but, you can hold hope. And so part of the reason I shared that story was to say, Hey, we've come out this other side and there is hope here, and maybe your kid will look like mine.

Leisa Reichelt 45:31

thanks so much Jess. It's been an absolute delight to get to know you a little bit and hear your story. So really appreciate you sharing it and all the very best for the rest of year 12.

Jessica (OT) 45:42

I think they will achieve what they want to because they want to. Things can change, but I think we're also open to that as well. But yeah, I can't really foresee anything other than a positive end of the year really.

Leisa Reichelt 45:52

Alright, thank you so much.

Jessica (OT) 45:53

No worries.

Leisa Reichelt 45:54

We covered so much ground in this conversation and I hope there was something helpful or inspiring for you in Jess's story. I've put links in the show notes to lots of the great resources that Jess mentioned in the episode, as well as links to the School Can't Australia website and Facebook community. If you haven't checked those out already, lots of helpful resources and support available there for you. If you found our podcast helpful, I would be so grateful if you could take a moment to subscribe or maybe give us a rating or a review. This helps so much to get the podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and who haven't yet found our School Can't community and all of the information that we share. If you have some feedback, maybe a suggestion for a future topic or a guest, perhaps you've been inspired to share your own lived experience story, please drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Please do not hesitate to reach out for extra support. Thank you again for listening. We'll talk again soon. Take care.