#54 - Billy Garvey’s tips for supporting School Can’t Kids

Dr Billy Garvey joins us on the School Can’t Experience Podcast to discuss why it shouldn’t be considered normal for children to struggle at school, and how the education system often fails to meet kids’ emotional and developmental needs. 

Together with host Leisa Reichelt, they explore early intervention and trusting parental instincts, the harms of dismissing distress as “just a phase,” and why trauma and bullying don’t build resilience. 

Billy emphasises agency and autonomy, relationship-based school re-entry, and the value of listening to a child’s lived experience—especially for neurodivergent kids. 

He explains co-regulation as starting with adult self-regulation, using calm proximity, validation, and repeated connection (often through play or shared interests like gaming). 

The conversation also covers parental stress, dads and disciplinary patterns, and Billy’s hope that better mental health training and support for educators can transform schools into true community sanctuaries.

More resources from Dr Billy Garvey:

• Pop Culture Parenting podcast: https://www.popcultureparenting.com/
• Growing Minds (a social enterprise dedicated to changing the future of our kids): https://www.guidinggrowingminds.com/
• 10 Things I Wish You Knew About Your Childs Mental Health (Book): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/ten-things-i-wish-you-knew-about-your-childs-mental-health-9781761345838

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. We have a very special guest today who you may know from another podcast called Pop Culture Parenting, or perhaps from his book, 10 Things I Wish You Knew about Your Child's Mental Health. Dr. Billy Garvey is a developmental pediatrician with over 20 years of experience working with kids and today in our conversation, we cover a range of topics including agency and autonomy, resilience, co-regulation. All of our favorite topics, so I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Dr Billy Garvey 0:55

Yeah, it's really interesting'cause there's a debate going on our social media platform at the moment about a comment I made that's had like a hundred thousand views speaking about it's not normal for kids to struggle at school. I suspect a lot of the people that are agitated by it haven't listened to the episode. And I think too much of it is just like, oh yeah, that's meant to be tough. Like I remember this beautiful mum in clinic with a girl who's like really struggling to attend, acutely suicidal, self-harming and everything. And I had to correct her because in clinic she was like,'School for you is like, work for mummy. I don't want to be there either, but I just have to.' And I was like, Ugh, that's not a great way to think about it. Like just that these environments should be traumatic. They shouldn't. And I think that, yeah, the system is so broken that we need to do something about it quickly because it's getting worse for a lot of kids. Our school attendance rates show that. And yeah, this is our future generation that's gonna be around our kids. Like that's why I do this work. I've got three little ones that I have some sphere of influence over, but the school that they'll be in, the peers that they have. All that's kind of being decided now, you know? I come from this personal experience, but professionally, our clinics have an over three year wait list. And I just think I say the same thing over and over again. Hopefully I'm helpful in clinic, but I think I can be more helpful when I can reach people sooner in that journey of like, as you said, like everyone's giving me conflicting advice, telling me I'm doing it wrong. I dunno what to do. You know, every single parent just adores their child and wants the best for them. But it's just so confusing out there. It's worrying, but I'm not, I don't know about you. I'm not like pessimistic about the future. I don't know, like, I think there's so much hope because I think so many people are trying to help so that things get better.

Leisa Reichelt 2:47

Well, Billy, I think we've started our podcast.

Dr Billy Garvey 2:49

sorry.

Leisa Reichelt 2:49

You've just, you've got straight into it. so let's carry on. Billy Garvey, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming.

Dr Billy Garvey 2:54

Thank you for having me, it's, yeah, it's, it's really nice to chat with you this morning.

Leisa Reichelt 2:58

Yeah. So. We have a community of, I think 17,000 plus people in Australia who have kids who are struggling at school. so there are tens of thousands of parents who have got kids who are having a incredibly difficult time.

Dr Billy Garvey 3:14

Yeah, it is. it's really challenging, isn't it? You know, children should be enjoying the environments that they're in. They should have challenges in them and stretches in them, but they should be succeeding. And I think we also focus way too heavily on academic success as like the marker of how's a kid going at school? How's the report card instead of like. Do they feel like they're celebrated here? Do they have a sense of belonging? Do they have positive relationships? Is this reinforcing secure self-esteem? That's the stuff that I actually care about when I meet these kids in clinic, not what are their grades like. I dunno what you were like personally, but in high school I never cared about grades. I cared about being cool and fitting in and all those things. And I really struggled through those years and nothing to do with my grades. And it was only in university when I finally felt comfortable in myself that I was actually able to do okay academically.

Leisa Reichelt 4:07

In your experience of talking to kids in clinic, going out and talking with all the other people that you talk to as well, what are the insights that you have as to why so many kids are having a tough time at school?

Dr Billy Garvey 4:19

I think there's lots of reasons, but I think one of the big ones is that we're not very in tune to what their experience is. I think as adults that are around them, I think one of the things that I've learned over 26 years of working with kids is like just listening and observing more. We ask kids, why are you having a hard time? Why don't you like it there? But they can't really explain it. They just feel it. And I think also like trying to think about what their experience is and what is the underlying need that is not being met in that child. And that's not about like, there's something wrong with the kid that's just, we're not in tune. And as we were saying at the start, neurodivergent children are more vulnerable to this'cause we look and go, oh, you should be fine here. Like, what do you mean? I'm actually listening to you. I'm being sensitive. I'm getting down and giving you space and all that stuff. Like this environment's not noisy. You know, like we kind of dismiss the experience these kids are having and there is really worrying research that has come out showing that, only a third of parents are confident they could recognize signs of mental illness in kids. And even more worrying a third of parents think that they're best left alone if they're there. And that makes sense when I was growing up we didn't know better. But we do know better now that catching these kids early in their struggles and actually understanding what that need is and building that accommodation or skill development or whatever it is that they need, can actually change their trajectory. One thing that always gets me fired up is this idea that, back in the day things were so much better. You just went to school and you listened to your teacher and you just respected them and you'd never dare shout out in class or whatever. And it's like. Yeah, the adult mental illness rate is just shy of 50%. So this romanticization of what life was like for us growing up is not true. It's a fairytale we tell ourselves and 50% of mental illness starts before you're 14. So that's why it's really wonderful to get to work with kids at this age where you can catch them early and be like, actually this kid's clinically anxious. They're just masking it. And they're hiding it because they don't wanna upset anyone. Or the only outlet they have is anger, you know? So they just don't have a skillset beyond that. And I was in my thirties when I started to figure this stuff out, so if the kid's 13, we probably need to give them more of a break, you know? And it's not, it's not a permissiveness. I think that sometimes I worry, I fall into this like permissive, gentle parenting thing. I want kids to really succeed. I, I meet a lot of kids that, you know, are not leaving their bedroom and they're just playing video games all day and stuff. And I, you know, those kids need to feel safe, but they need to come out of that as well and really succeed in whatever matters to them. And so, yeah, I think that understanding that, and then moving forward once we address it, is the basis of all the evidence in supporting these kids. You know, and that's, that's the wonderful thing. But I think people really struggle to navigate that, especially when there's much noise, you know?

Leisa Reichelt 7:15

There will be a bunch of people who are listening who have probably got a kid in the bedroom right now, on a screen, struggling to come out. So that's pretty familiar territory for a lot of us. Billy, you talked about early intervention and getting in early, and when we talk to people about their lived experiences, a lot of them are just like, I wish that I'd have acted sooner, but I think, to your point before, we hear a lot of people going, it's just a phase. It's hard for everyone. They'll work through it, it'll be fine. And so, you know, oh mum, you're just being anxious. It's probably your anxiety that they're picking up on. How do we get the balance right between not feeling like we're overreacting to something that is just a phase and not leaving things too long.

Dr Billy Garvey 7:56

Yeah, definitely. We did recently, on the podcast, When to Worry and we used a movie Titanic about like, how do you make sure you spot the iceberg before it sinks you? And I reckon we had hundreds and hundreds of messages from parents saying, I wish I trusted my gut. Everyone told me it was just a phase. It was gonna be fine. This will be good for them. This all, you know, God resilience stuff drives me crazy, but like this will make them more resilient. And all these parents looking back going, I wish that I hadn't have listened to that. I wish that I'd trusted how I felt internally about how my kid was going and what this experience was like for them. And I think also just being careful about who are the voices that you're listening to? I'm trying to think. I always use the same analogy, so I'm trying to think of a different one. But if you were getting on a plane and the person said, I built this plane. I'm not an engineer, but I've flown on planes a lot, you'd kind of be like, I don't think this is safe. But in terms of kids' development and mental health, we just trust people that don't have any actual training in it. And you know, trying to think about that. And that doesn't mean that everyone who has clinical training is the right voice and guidance for your child because we know that a lot of families leave clinics after waiting a long time, not getting to speak about what they went in there for. So I think that professionally we've gotta get better at making families feel safe to say what they think and to challenge some of the things they've heard and things like that. I think there's so much work across the board that we can do to improve these outcomes for these kids. But I don't really ever like the idea that it's just a phase, you know, whether it's like a kid who's not talking much in preschool or teenager who's shutting down and won't speak to parents. Those are not normal phases that kids go through. And I think we've just been convinced that they are by our own experiences and our culture around us, that teenagers are moody and they just shut us out you know, or boys will be boys and they just push each other around and they can bully a bit. No, no, those, those are, that's not how it should be. we should have a higher bar than that. And bullying is a really good example. We know how destructive bullying is in school communities and how much it impacts kids not attending, or attending and just being anxious the whole time that something negative is gonna happen. We have solid evidence of how to avoid and prevent bullying and how to proactively respond to it when we see signs of it. But schools often aren't set up to do it. They don't understand that evidence. They don't have professionals supporting them in how they tailor it to their individual needs. And bullying just happens in all these schools, and we just go, ah, that's just the way it is. Like it's what, what an awful thing to just think that it's normal for a kid to experience trauma in an environment. So, yeah, it's a bit of a soapbox. Sorry, But I don't I don't like that it's just a phase

Leisa Reichelt 10:40

I think it's good to hear it because I think it is something that so many parents are told, and you know, when you say like, think about who to trust,

Dr Billy Garvey 10:48

Mm.

Leisa Reichelt 10:48

you do, especially if it's your first kid, you do tend to trust the school, right? Because what else do you know? Like they know this, you don't know this. And so you do tend to trust them. And then also I think parents, maybe particularly mothers, but parents in general are kind of susceptible to, to their confidence in their own parenting being, undermined.

Dr Billy Garvey 11:11

Yeah, definitely. I think because it's the thing that you care the most about. So, you know, especially mums are just so reflective on like, what could I be doing better? Where am I falling down? What am I failing at with this kid? You know, it's awful. But that's a lot of the families that I meet, they're not celebrating themselves and how well they're doing as well. But I have to say as well, like my experience with kids who are struggling, the problem is mainly the education system. It's like the teachers, you probably know this, teachers aren't in it for the money. They're not in it for, you know, like a lot of them passionately care about kids. And the number one reason they're leaving the workforce at the moment is behavioral difficulties in the classroom. And, there's an answer to all of that stuff that shouldn't be a normal part of their occupation is kids being violent or being abusive or threatening them, or, you know, that once again, that's not a phase, that's not a kids being kids. That's like, there is something happening in that community, in that environment, in that classroom for those kids that can be addressed to make it a positive experience for the educators. I've been talking recently, I'd love to hear what you think about this. Is that schools and hospitals are owned by the community. Not the hospital administrators or the school leadership, and the best schools I've ever seen are the ones that truly do that. They truly say to every family, especially the ones that are vulnerable to being isolated. This is your place,

Leisa Reichelt 12:38

Hmm.

Dr Billy Garvey 12:38

we borrow it from you. I sit in a clinic in one of the biggest kids hospitals in the world. The community lets me have that space and I have to earn that I deserve it by doing my job well. And I think this idea that you're privileged to have an appointment or there's conditions on your kid coming to this school are like this. It just creates this hostility and it's not an actual partnership. And I think that we as a society need to push back against that and say. You know, schools are actually everyone's, but also the shared responsibility of it, like the surrounding community, whether it's the community health center or it's the local footy club, or the local pediatric clinic needs to actually come to the school and be like, how can we help? Not just saying, and I'm talking about child protection, family services, the police services. They need to all know the schools and their community really intimately and be part of that proactive solution so that we're not waiting for kids to be self-harming or suicidal. And then we say, well go and wait in this long wait list for an appointment for a specialist and continue to experience this trauma. Or justifiably a parent pulls a kid outta school and goes, I can't do this to them anymore. And then you have all the challenges of like, that person then has to stop working. They then feel lost and isolated. The kid's stuck in the room and can't get out of it. And like, yeah, it's,

Leisa Reichelt 14:02

the financial distress that comes

Dr Billy Garvey 14:04

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 14:04

well. Yeah, it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing.

Dr Billy Garvey 14:07

Yeah, your community would be so sensitive about this, but I, yeah. I don't like these people that are just like, oh, just don't put your kids in childcare. Don't do this. You know, schools, and it's like, how privileged is it to be like, oh yeah, I'll just be at home with my kids. Like that's a huge privilege for so many people that a lot of people just can't simply get by if they did that.

Leisa Reichelt 14:25

A lot of people have to turn their lives upside down in order to help support their kids because of the traumatic experience that they're having at school. it's a huge deal.

Dr Billy Garvey 14:33

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 14:34

Billy, you mentioned resilience before and how excited you get by that term. it's also something that parents of school can't kids hear all the time. How do you respond when people are saying, you know, you just get through it, you'll be fine. It'll help you build resilience. what are we getting wrong there?

Dr Billy Garvey 14:52

Trauma doesn't make you resilient. You are resilient despite trauma, That trauma is a detrimental experience that impacts cumulatively your mental health and your development, your self-esteem, all that kind of stuff. It's not one that builds it. And we can make sense of it by like, for kid who can't swim, you don't throw them in the deep end and say you'll figure it out.'Cause we know they won't if they don't actually know how to swim. But we do that all the time with kids in resilience and justifying like social and emotional environments that aren't meeting their needs by saying, this will make you resilient. And truly resilience, this is what all the evidence shows is resilience is the ability to experience adversity and have a healthy way of processing it and coming out functioning well. And a lot of people don't have that experience with those adverse environments and relationships and experiences. So they go through bullying, for example, and they become bullies themselves or they completely shut down or they don't attend school anymore because they go, I can't. So there's a risk to my safety in that environment and instead of thinking about, Hey, this is an emotional experience you're having, it's a pretty awful one. You need help processing that. You need someone to support you, to co-regulate through the experience you've had, to understand it, to process it, but then also to protect you from it not happening yet in the future. And to develop, help seeking and communicate what your needs are and healthy assertiveness and conflict resolution and all those things. And then you become resilient because you go, yeah, I had the support of an adult through this experience, who validated how I was feeling, told me that it's actually not acceptable, and then gave me a process to move forward from it that would keep me safe from it in the future. That's the reality of how you build resilience. You don't build it either by like uniform, programs that teach every kid the same thing because every kid's needs are different and you can't just you know, get someone to do breathing exercises and say, you're resilient. That's ridiculous. That's a single form of interoception that can be helpful for a small group of kids to regulate their emotions by giving them an actual activity that helps them in the moment. But to think that that will universally build resilience across the school community is just wild. And in 2026 we should know better. But yeah, that's how I feel about resilience and that's, I come from a lens of someone who. did not enjoy school and then got kicked out. Which obviously plays a big part in why I do the work that I do. My PhD was in this space and my PhD was how to build the capacity of educators to identify children with emotional, behavioral difficulties and support them. And every single school I worked with, we delivered 45 sessions in six months, and every single one of them was different. There was nothing that was replicated. It was like, let's hear about a kid who's having a hard time and let's figure out how to support that child. And that's what we do in clinic. And the beautiful thing about that PhD was it proved that clinical expertise that interacts directly with school communities can be beneficial. It's sustainable, builds confidence in educators and improves outcomes for kids. Like it's, you know, it's not rocket science, but I think we're trying to put cheaper alternatives, or simple or universal things, or... I say cheaper alternatives, some of the programs that are out there nationally are hugely expensive for schools, and they're spending huge amounts of their budget on someone who has no expertise coming into the school and doing stuff that, I understand why the schools are doing it because they're just lost and trying to help their kids. But there's better answers to this stuff out there, and it can really change things. And I think that every child should have the opportunity to be in a school and succeed. I meet kids that have huge success now that they're not in mainstream schooling. They finally feel safe. They come outta the shell. They have creative outlets, they still have social connections and all of that stuff. So I never want to sound like I'm not validating the amazing work that the homeschooling community's doing, because I think they, it's been an amazing thing to watch over the last couple of decades that community really come around some of the most vulnerable children and families in our communities. But I think that schools need to be better supported and guided and resourced in this stuff. And like we said at the start, I don't really care about academics. Like, you know, these kids need to be safe, sense of belonging and celebrated and the things they care about and who they are before you get anywhere near teaching them Algebra.

Leisa Reichelt 19:16

think once you go through this school current journey as well too, you start to think about education and learning very differently.

Dr Billy Garvey 19:22

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 19:22

I mean, I home educated my son for three quarters of a year. Right. And I just saw that the way that he learned and the things that he learned were just like so different to what he was doing at school. Right. And then he tried to go back to school again this year. He'd go into maths and he'd be just like, oh, this is just boring stuff, right? Because last year we were talking about the different kinds of infinities. I didn't even know they were different kinds of infinities, right? But that's what gets his gears crunching, right?

Dr Billy Garvey 19:49

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt 19:49

And then he goes in and he's doing like, what's the name of a this shape? And it's like, oh. I, and it's like, it's like this whole, like getting your HSE or getting a score or passing this test. The things that you learn in high school, a lot of them are just not that interesting. Right.

Dr Billy Garvey 20:07

Yeah. I dunno what your experience was in school, but mine was just a tolerance thing. Even in the good periods, I was just waiting for a chance to play with mates, you know? Which is wild when you think about it, like how many children experience that, where they're just like, Ugh, the classroom, you know? And then you've got teachers that are like, Ugh, the classroom, like

Leisa Reichelt 20:27

Yeah.

Dr Billy Garvey 20:27

surely the system can be better than that.

Leisa Reichelt 20:29

I mean, again, like I, I've got more of autistic profile, so for me, the classroom was a place of safety in theory, whereas the playground was like kind of terrifying.

Dr Billy Garvey 20:37

I think that contrast that you just said is a really important one as well. I think that what we know is a lot of kids, especially children with executive function differences like, Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. A component of the cognitive flexibility that exists between going from an environment that is completely unscaffolded of a playground into a classroom that is so regimented is a really challenging thing that causes so much cognitive load on them multiple times a day that they burn out. And it is interesting to think about how opposite those environments are of like completely controlled, predictable, I'm being a bit unfair here, but can't move, can't make a noise, need to do exactly what every other kid is doing in the room to be compliant to good luck on the playground.

Leisa Reichelt 21:26

Yeah. it's weird, isn't it?

Dr Billy Garvey 21:27

Yeah. Well, I think it's also hundreds of years old. Like it really hasn't evolved in hundreds of years. It is such an archaic way of doing something and you just, there's not many things that we're still doing the same way as we were essentially hundreds of years ago. It's this, someone a long time ago decided all sit in a room, look in one direction and someone will just didactically talk to you for this much time. and then we just haven't been really good at being like, actually this probably doesn't work for a lot of kids.

Leisa Reichelt 21:58

Digital screens instead of blackboards now,

Dr Billy Garvey 22:00

Yeah,

Leisa Reichelt 22:01

yeah.

Dr Billy Garvey 22:02

it'd be great if that was the answer.

Leisa Reichelt 22:03

No, that's a, it's a, it's a good point. I know that when you're talking about parenting kids this idea of agency and autonomy is really important. And as I think you just alluded to, school in a lot of ways is kind of the opposite of that, right? School in many ways is about compliance and not so much about agency and autonomy. How can you see a way that we can reconcile all of that?

Dr Billy Garvey 22:30

Well, I think, it comes down to like, and this is family, schools, whatever kind of community you're looking at is kids should have a voice in what the values are and what are we trying to achieve here, and why are we all coming together? And, that's how you think about where the boundaries are. Like, we want to be safe and we want to be, but not just compliance and saying, this is our set of rules. It's what should our rules be? What should our boundaries be? What matters to us collectively? And kids having a voice in that. I think in a simple level, you can think about it as like saying please and thank you, and stuff like that and just forcing kids to say it or helping kids learn why, and then they choose to say it or not. I'm more interested in the kid that, you know, I have more, assurance that a kid is gonna be okay that is getting supported in an environment that thinks, I want you to understand why we say please and thank you, and then choose to do it compared to someone who just says, you say it because otherwise you're gonna be punished. Because that's about agency and that's about autonomy and we know how important that is for kids. A lot of kids classic example is children with PDA. It's really scary to feel like you don't have agency and autonomy. And so for a lot of them, it's not a cognitive choice they're making. It's their body is saying like, I can't do this. And I think when you understand that often one of the first steps out of that really stuck state that those children and their families are in is, how do I get this kid to feel safe again, through a sense of agency. And choice is really, really important. And I do it on a simple level with my kids. Like whenever I'm trying to get something to another point, like into the car, bedtime, brushing teeth, eating a meal or something, I succeed more when I think about what's their experience like and how do I give them choice within it. When I say, you're doing it, bad luck. It's pressure and it fails. Even when I get them in the car. It hasn't been a positive experience. But whereas when I say like. You know, which door are you gonna get in the car? Or what toy do you want to bring for the car? Or should we race there hopping or should we do this or whatever. Then suddenly they realize they have agency and they're not thinking about, it's a battle of whether I get in the car or not. They're thinking, what choice do I want to make? This person's thinking of me and listening to me, and it's the same in schools. Like I think one of the safest reentries that I've seen back into schools for a lot of kids who are really struggling to attend is actually relationship based. It's like, who is someone in this environment that we can help you build back a relationship with that you know, the Berry Street Education model guys talk about this as every kid needing a champion. I think that part of that is agency as well, is like I'm choosing who that person is and I'm choosing to build a relationship with them, and I'm not even hearing about how much I'm coming to school for. I'm not even hearing about how much I'm participating in class. Everyone is just trying to help me build that relationship with that one educator, you know, which hopefully is like the wellbeing person or something. But for some kids it's like, it's the music teacher.'cause they just really love music and they're just like, that's the person that I go to when I feel dysregulated and I feel unsafe. And they don't even ask me anything. They just see me, they smile and they sit with me, you know? Or they give me a chance to move my body or make sounds or do whatever. Like that's agency and autonomy. And I think there's such a lack of it for so many kids out there. And it's mainly because of the way we were parented. We were just, should be seen and not heard or like, this is what kids are, you should respect your elders and all this stuff. And those things might be true. But respect is a really interesting one as well, because I think I meet a lot of, especially dads who are like, I need my kid to respect me, and they don't like the answer I always give, which is like, the way they learn it is by others respecting them first. And they're like, well, no, no, I put a roof over their heads. They should respect me. I'm the person who pays for everything they have. And it's, that's just a wild way to think about relationships. Imagine if you had a friend that was like, you need to respect me because I buy dinner. You'd be like, I'm pretty busy for the next few months. You know, because it's so, it's just so transactional. It's so superficial and it's so flimsy. So yeah, sometimes I worry the things that I say, people have a teenager and they're like, oh man, I didn't do that when they were a toddler. I was just like, get in the car. But I've never met a kid who it's lost for, you know, and I, I meet the most vulnerable teenagers that are out there. And it's beautiful'cause you just get to know the kid. Like that's what it actually comes down to. It's just get to know the kid. And it's even going back to what you were saying about the kids in the room. Like, you've gotta go into the room first, like literally, but also figuratively, like learn about the video game they're playing. Learn about what they spend their time online, what YouTube creators they're watching. Like what is the stuff that interests them about it and learn about it as gentle opportunities of connection before you ever get anywhere near, like, come out and talk to us.

Leisa Reichelt 27:35

Yeah.

Dr Billy Garvey 27:35

Going towards them. I, I dunno if you've ever, I've had some pretty significant mental illness in my time and I just wanted people to really gently come to me, you know, with no expectation on how I would be. And that was when I started to feel safe again. yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 27:51

I've been reflecting lately that as a parent, if my son is feeling bad, I feel compelled to have a solution to go, oh, well, it's okay. We'll do something. We'll do this. and surprisingly, it doesn't always go well when I approach him in that way'cause I realize now, like probably what he wants me to do is just acknowledge it and be there with him in it. As a mum, I'm just like, okay, I'm in charge here. I've gotta make this work.

Dr Billy Garvey 28:18

I, you just made me think about one experience I had at Christmas, which was essentially, these expensive Christmas ornaments that my partner had bought like as a special thing years ago when we first started doing Christmas together. And there was I think two of them. And, my daughter was like, can I please put them up? And my partner was like, yeah, of course. And then she dropped on and it broke and she was just devastated. And like, she's really sensitive temperament like me, so she's really, really upset. And it kind of brought up this thing in my own childhood of like, we didn't have much money and like, I would've gotten in a lot of trouble if I'd done that thing. And so I went over to her straightaway. I was like, Hey, it doesn't matter. It's just stuff. Doesn't matter at all. It's just stuff. And my partner Annaliese, who's like a surgeon, so she's very solutions focused. Whereas I love just listening to people in clinic where she's like, what surgery needs to happen? She was just like, stop, just let her have this experience and be disappointed. And it was such a good check for me to be like, that's my own childhood experience influencing what I'm doing. And I think that, yeah, it's comes from a beautiful place for you and I to be like, we want to fix this thing. But I think we do miss an opportunity for them to just to have that emotional experience and be supported through it. And I would say that's one of the things I spend a lot of time in clinic talking about is like, we wanna fix the anxiety or depression that our kids are experiencing, but actually we need to help them go through that and sit with them and hold space with them and help them understand what that's like. You probably heard of it before, but this idea in some therapeutic approaches of like radical acceptance of just like, this is how things are and you don't stay there, but you actually find the way out by radically accepting that this is the experience I'm having and this is how I'm feeling, and it's valid and it's genuine.

Leisa Reichelt 30:01

It can take a long time to get there though. Like, I feel like for me it's still very much about me. Like if my son is not well, it's like, okay, well that's a reflection on me and I need to do better.

Dr Billy Garvey 30:11

Totally, but I mean, if I'm being a hundred percent honest, some of the times I'm so busy that I'm like, oh God, I can't, I don't have time for this.

Leisa Reichelt 30:18

Hmm.

Dr Billy Garvey 30:18

there's a big meltdown over something that I'm like, this is a little, and I'm like, far out. This is really stuffing up my day. I'm so selfish in those moments sometimes where I'm like, I can't even get to the bit where you are, where it's like, how have I caused this? Which is I reckon a healthiest step in the right direction of thinking about that. But also then thinking about, actually it's not my fault. I'm actually trying really hard as a parent, I'm being as sensitive and responsive as I can, and I'm just learning along the way. And you know, one of the beautiful best bits of evidence is actually just reflective practice. Like, how am I going, how's my relationship? How am I going in supporting this kid that's in my life? How am I going looking after myself? And I think I've never met anyone that's like I've, yeah, perfect. But I've met heaps of people that don't do that. Or they're just like, ah, no, it doesn't matter. And the most tragic ones that I experience are like really acutely unwell kids where parents are like, I just wish they'd see a therapist. Like,'cause they'll often see me as a developmental ped because it's like a softer entry. But I can't see anyone frequently enough, really. You know, the kids that need weekly therapy, I never get to do that with my patients.'cause I've got just shy of 400 patients active at the moment. And, these kids, you know, their parents are just like desperate. I wish they would go and see a therapist Like, I can remember one dad particularly in the same conversation. I was like, that must be so hard. Have you ever thought about going and seeing someone And they'll look at me and say, it's a complete waste of time. And it's just like, it's heartbreaking because, you know, that's influencing the child's decision more than the parent saying you really need to go and see a therapist. Is that that parent is role modeling, that this is not a helpful thing to do. You know, and a lot of the parents that I meet, especially mums, the biggest challenge is getting them to look after their own mental health. And almost all of them will say to me, I'll be fine once my kid's fine. But that's not how it works. unfortunately, that's not how it works. And that's why I see a therapist. That's why I do those things, look after myself. But one of my big motivators is to be as best as I can for my kids, you know?

Leisa Reichelt 32:22

Yeah, in the School Can't community, we talk a lot about nervous system and the impact of the nervous system on kids' ability to be able to regulate and, you know, get outta their rooms at all or be able to go to school, various things like that. We know theory we're told all the time that an important job for us is co-regulation. I don't know whether anyone's really done a good job of like breaking down what that exactly is and how we do that. And I think I'd also like to add onto that, you know, someone who's probably fairly dysregulated a lot of the time because of what life has become, like how, how does that impact your ability to help with co-regulation as well? That's like a triple bomb question. Sorry about

Dr Billy Garvey 33:04

I, it's a great question though, so going backwards in it, your sensitivity actually makes it easier for you to do it once you understand and give yourself an actual pathway to do it. I think that. We look at temperament studies like the 20 to 30% of us that have sensitive temperaments, meaning that, you know, the experiences we have in the world can have a big impact on us, positively and negatively. emotional experiences that someone outside might looking in, go far out. That wasn't a big deal. but you've made it a big deal is that in sensitive, responsive environments and relationships, people with sensitive temperaments, including kids actually outperform kids and adults with easygoing temperaments. they're more vulnerable to adversity as well though. But the beautiful thing about sensitivity, especially in neurodivergent individuals, is that there is a much higher potential that exists through connection, and through that sensitivity. And my easiest example for me is, once again my, I've got three kids, my 4-year-old daughter, fiery, redhead. Like I can understand and connect with her on a really deep level because of my sensitivity, whereas her mum is phenomenal, but has an easygoing temperament and sometimes will be like, I don't know why she's having a tough time at the moment. And I can reflect quite easily and be like, I was like that an hour ago. It was something little too. So it's easier for me in terms of the steps of co-regulation, the best way to describe it is. It is really about self-regulation of our own nervous systems and we actually learn that through co-regulation. And it's not, it can sound a little bit like purple crystals and, you know, ice bath stuff, but it's functional mRI, is where we learned a lot of this, But essentially we know that in partnerships, either a therapist or a clinician and a patient or a parent and a child or a platonic or romantic adult relationship that knows each other well, there is a synchronization of our nervous systems that occurs when we're actually connected. Usually we need to be in close proximity in physical space, but that doesn't ensure it, it's actually how we are. And I always think about the way that I step it through in my own personal experience and what I do in clinic is that you can't step any closer towards a child to increase that proximity until you're actually regulated yourself. And I think a lot of parents don't do that step. They don't actually check in with themselves and go, how am I feeling right now? And whether that's in interoception or mindfulness or whatever you do, but just connecting with your own experience and saying, what's going on for me? And what's the feelings that I'm having? And not explaining it, justifying it, changing it or whatever, but trying to just get to calm and then going towards that child and then thinking about where's a connection piece. And as I'm trying to think about that connection, I'm looking at this child thinking, I'm wondering what their experience is.'cause now I've figured out mine, so I'm curious and genuine curiosity, not, I want them to stop doing this, or I can't believe they're like this. But thinking about, I wonder why now is tough. Connecting with them. And often we do that non-verbally. So we just, you know, and true co-regulation or mental health first aid at its highest form is about, I'm getting closer to you, but I'm watching how you're responding to it. I've got open body language. My eyes are at your level or below. I'm not cornering you in an environment. I'm sensitive to what's going on around you. And the responsiveness is you are tensing up. So I back off and I show you and I don't ask anything of you. All I say is I'm here. The toddler that's having a meltdown, or the teen who is self-harming, it's like, I'm sorry you're experiencing this. I want to help. And then it's thinking about how can I be in that environment with them and connect with them. If I'm gonna talk, it's gonna be slow and low. And calm and it's gonna be validating their experience only using simple phrases like, I'm here, not you're Okay. Um, and once again, like you said before, not problem solving, not going, I'm gonna fix this, but just about holding space and I've had the privilege over many years of doing that with the most dysregulated kids on psych wards, including kids in high security psychiatric wards that have experienced huge amounts of trauma. And it is possible, I've never met a kid that it's not possible to co-regulate with. It's just that some kids are so set that others are not helpful or no one understands what my experience is, or my nervous system is so wired and so highly sensitive. And so, oppositional to someone being able to help that it just takes a lot of time and a lot of repetition of healthy versions of it to change us. But it's, it's probably the thing that I invest in the most with my kids. And I think the other mistake we do is we only try it when the kid's really dysregulated. We like wait for it to be a huge meltdown. They're fighting with a sibling or, and that's the hardest time to get good at it. That's what we all want to get to is that I can regulate this kid when they're really distressed. But low levels of frustration is when is the best time to hone that? And the connection piece actually we learn that the best through play. Through a kid that's completely regulated and we just practice connecting with them by child led play, getting on the ground with them and just exploring it with them. And that's a very long answer, but that's co-regulation in like all of the research. My own personal experience of applying it in clinic and with my own kids. And there's few things that are more worthy investing in than that. I'd argue that it's really important to read to kids and it's really important to feed them vegetables. But if you had to choose between those three things, choose play and co-regulation.

Leisa Reichelt 38:43

Getting on the Xbox, does that count, as well as getting on the floor?

Dr Billy Garvey 38:46

It does for me. Like I, yeah, I've got a lot of kids that, that's been the way that I've connected with them. Like, I reckon it was maybe 12 years ago that I came home to Annaliese and I was like, I've gotta start playing Fortnite.'cause I was like, all these kids knew that I was lying. I played heaps of video games and so I'd often ask them, it's a beautiful way I connect with kids like skateboarding and snowboarding and all that stuff. But I often talk about the video games I play, but so many kids were playing Fortnite back then and they could all tell that I was pretending.'cause they get a little bit excited when I say, yeah, I know Fortnite. And then we'd talk about it and they'd be like, you don't know Fortnite.

Leisa Reichelt 39:20

You can't do the dance, dude.

Dr Billy Garvey 39:23

But it was so valuable and it's really, I've had other things like a beautiful autistic child who was really struggling but quite introverted and shutting everyone out was really into these intricate ant farms. And I went down such a rabbit hole of learning about his favorite YouTuber. And I've got a beautiful connection with that kid now because that was the piece, you know, that was how I got through and he opened up was because I learned about his world, you know, and I, it's just a lot of investments for some families that I think, especially when they weren't brought up like that, they were like, my dad never learned what I was into, you know? And, which is true for a lot of us, but I don't think that it's too late for any kid to be like, what's the music they're into? The video games? The YouTube creators or something. And I don't want kids to live their lives on screens, but I think they can be really safe entry points for kids to start building connections with others and then transitioning them off into the world that doesn't have a screen in front of it.

Leisa Reichelt 40:24

You've mentioned dads a couple of times and I wonder whether we can talk about that

Dr Billy Garvey 40:28

Of course.

Leisa Reichelt 40:29

really common for there to be big relationship difficulties in parents as a result of the stress that comes up around School Can't and around getting on the same page around how to handle it. And not invariably, but commonly it's the mums are more able to get around some of these softer parenting strategies. And dads are more kind of, they stay longer with the more disciplinary type approaches. Why do you think that is? And how can we help support dads to go on this journey maybe a little faster than they are?

Dr Billy Garvey 41:17

Yeah. Gosh, you said that so gently. That was like so good if you just, how you stepped through it. You like didn't want to hurt anyone. Yeah, I mean the research shows us strongly that even before children are born. When we find out the gender, the sex of a child, sorry, antenatally, it changes how we think about them and how we talk about them and how we talk to them. Like the research is pretty wild in this space that, you know, especially dads, especially dads to sons, are more likely to use physical control and physical discipline than mothers to sons or dads to daughters. And so we very early on place a lot more control of emotional expression. Can't be sad, can't have fear those things from a very young age. Like I'm writing another book at the moment and was talking about how, dads sing less to their kids and they sing less to their sons. They talk to them less and it's because that was their experience when they were a little boy. Like, and that's still out there. it's just absolutely wild. But that's still out there. And I think that that cultural influence is one that we really need to aggressively challenge. And yeah, it's just one of those ideas that we have that is not based in any biological grounding, that women are more compassionate and caring, and boys are more assertive and take control more. And so that's the tools that a lot of dads are limited to. I meet heaps of dads that are changing that and working really hard, but I think it's such a dominant form in society still in 2026.

Leisa Reichelt 42:50

what I'm thinking about is like, dads who they're, they're good people. They care for their kids. They love their family, but they will persist with this kind of hard line of like, you will go to school, you will not be disruptive. you know, to the point that you know, the kids do because they're kind of afraid of their dad. But the dad's not being violent, but they're just very much sort of stricter, I guess is what you'd say. Whereas Mum maybe is a little bit faster to just go, okay, I can see this environment is really problematic and you need to take a break, for example.

Dr Billy Garvey 43:25

Yeah, I mean that's decades old research of authoritarian parenting, you know, that is the, you know, you'll do it'cause I said so. And that tracks really poorly through the life course. Not as bad as the neglectful parenting, but it tracks through the life courses being detrimental to kids in their development and mental health. And I think that acknowledging where that comes from, and thinking about, you know, I understand why, but the actual evidence shows that if we actually are sensitive to this kid's needs, even if the goal is we want them back in school succeeding, this is not the path.

Leisa Reichelt 43:59

do you think, like going back to what you were saying before, Billy, do you think that Dad's probably received that more tough love from their families and that's maybe why they're a little bit less inclined to

Dr Billy Garvey 44:10

Oh, definitely. Yeah. That's how they were brought up and that's how society treats them. You know, to make it slightly more lighthearted, like, look at what's happened with ice baths. And I always laugh and I think the extent that men will go to not to go and see a therapist and talk about their feelings, they'll sit in freezing water as a way to address their anxiety or depression or insecurity and stuff. And as a 40-year-old man, that can be a terrifying thing to open up and, and you, your answer, unfortunately, what they do with their kids is just repeat that cycle. The biggest predictor of how your parent is, how you were parented. A lot of us go too far the other way. You know, like a lot of us become permissive because we're like, I just want this kid to be happy. And then we put no expectation around kids, and that harms them too. But all the beautiful evidence around parenting style is that the authoritative parent, which we're all aiming for, is one that starts with warmth, but has high expectations and does place demands upon kids like in a way that's healthy and based on their strengths and supports, what they're going for and what matters to them. But we don't just be permissive and say, all I'm gonna do is love you, like whatever happens. Because sometimes kids get really stuck in those phases, and I think a lot of dads are so worried about that, that they're like, no, you have to go to school. Bad luck, mate. It's happening. You know? And yeah, if you haven't actually addressed the underlying issue of often anxiety that is happening for that child and then built up their capacity to be in that environment successfully, and going back to what you were saying earlier, by their choice. So they choose it, not, we say, well, it's term two, you need to be back, or it's been this long, you need to be back. Like the kid chooses to go back in, then that's how they succeed. So it's just, I, I don't think it's ever parent that's like intentionally trying to be harmful. I think it's just that they haven't got a better understanding of how to get the kid succeeding again, you know?

Leisa Reichelt 46:09

you're right I wanted to come back to optimism. You said at the top of our conversation that you know the school system is problematic, has been for a long time, hasn't changed very much, and yet you are full of optimism for the future. Tell me where this optimism comes from.

Dr Billy Garvey 46:27

Uh, it's the kids I meet, like I couldn't a hundred percent tell you where it comes from. It's the kids I meet in clinic. I meet kids. You know, who gives me it the most? it's the bad it kids, often boys that everyone has given up on and they'll be either completely shutting everyone out or they'll be violent. And these are often like kids who are in juvenile detention or in foster care for 10 years'cause of how violent they are. And I sit and play this tiny role in their journey outta that dark place. It's, it's given me so much hope for every other kid that I meet. Like I, you know, I didn't personally have that experience, but to be able to share that experience of kids coming through that adversity and coming out the other side of it with a healthy sense of self and a healthy version of what good relationships look like, and that they should be supported and they should be cared for, and they should be loved unconditionally. It gives me hope that we can do it for everyone. Like I, yeah, I don't think there's ever a kid that's lost. You know, like, so that's what gives me optimism. And I actually think there's so many things I care about that I don't have expertise in, like the environment and stuff like that. I look at the kids that are coming up now and I'm like, yeah, they're amazing. And I want my kids to be a part of that community, the healthy one that looks after each other and is that collaborative connective community that actually doesn't put the individual before everyone else. And I think I meet a lot of kids that have experienced really adverse childhoods and trauma and abuse and all that stuff, and they come out the other side when people actually start understanding how to help them. And that's what gives me hope. And that's why I love sitting in clinic. And there's so many educators out there and caregivers that are working so hard against challenges that I will hopefully never have to face personally. And to be a, like a small helping hand in that stuff gives me so much hope that things will actually be okay. So, yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 48:30

about the school system though, Billy? If you could change one thing about the education system, you know, for your kids that are coming up to it for everyone else's kids who are living with it right now, what would you wanna change about it?

Dr Billy Garvey 48:40

I would want to better support educators in child development and mental health. That's why my PhD's in it. That's why Guiding Growing Minds does that work.'Cause I think the educators are the ones that change it. Like I think the system is broken. I think that there are exceptional educators in every community, that if they were better supported, they would change it. That that system is just so broken. And politicians and policy makers just need to do better to actually understand what the kids and adults are supporting them in that community need. And I go back to my thing, like schools are almost like the last bastion of a community. And they should be seen as a community for everyone who lives around them. There should be, men's groups that happen in the evenings. In those spaces, there should be, early parenting stuff that happens in those spaces. So by the time the kid gets to the first day of school, that entire family feels like they already have a sense of ownership of that physical space. And they are not these negative experiences that so many of us had that we look back and see those physical buildings and think of trauma. We look back and think of them as sanctuaries. And I truly believe that is possible, and I will work so hard for as long as I can to make that actually happen. And that's why you won't hear me in any media talk about what hospital I work at, because I can be free to tell the truth when I speak from my social enterprise of Guiding Growing Minds because I think that's maybe where I can be the most helpful in saying, this isn't good enough and this is the path through it. And there's, it's not a lack of money and resources. There's money being poured into things that have zero evidence. And also like listen to the homeschooling community. And so how can we make schools safer? How can we make them from early days, from the first day, from before the kid ever steps foot in it?

Leisa Reichelt 50:32

Indeed.

Dr Billy Garvey 50:32

yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 50:34

Billy, thank you so much. If people wanna learn more about all the work that you're doing and how to get closer to it, where do you recommend they go?

Dr Billy Garvey 50:40

Yeah, there's a website called Guiding Growing Minds, Pop Culture Parenting podcast. The best thing about Pop Culture Parenting is the community around us. It's just Nick and I are this small part of it. But yeah, we do a lot of work. We go into schools for free as part of our impact series, so if you meet criteria, we can come and do work with you. And yeah, just come around and be a part like what you've done, which is amazing, of just like be, you know, be part of our community. And it's been a real privilege to just share some time with you and hopefully be helpful to some of your community as well this morning. So thanks for having me.

Leisa Reichelt 51:12

Thank you so much I so enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Billy Garvey, and I hope you found something helpful or reassuring in there as well. I've put some links to all the other places you can get more of Billy's great work in the episode notes, so please go and check those out. Particularly if you think you might be able to get him to come along and be helpful at a school you know that could use his support. If you have found our podcast helpful, I would be so grateful if you can take a moment to subscribe or give us a rating or a review. This really does help us get the podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and who have not yet found the School Can't community and all the information and support we share. If you have some feedback for us or a suggestion for a future topic or a guest, or perhaps you've been inspired to share your own lived experience story, please drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you're feeling distressed, remember, you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Thank you again for listening. We'll talk again soon. Take care.