#56 - Why Teacher Relationships Matter with Dr Kate Renshaw

Play and filial therapist Dr. Kate Renshaw joins host Leisa Reichelt to explore how play therapy can support children and families experiencing School Can’t, especially when kids struggle with traditional talk-based therapies. 

Kate describes why play therapy is developmentally sensitive and how the family-based approach, filial therapy can be powerful for both parent and child. She discusses creating consistent, relationally safe support across home and school. 

This episode also explores Kate’s evidence-based Teacher’s Optimal Relationship Approach (TORA), designed to help teachers use play-therapy-informed relational skills in everyday classroom interactions. Kate highlights research showing the student–teacher relationship is a key predictor of school attendance. They discuss practical ways families can “lean into play,” including joining children in their interests and screen-based play.

Relevant resources;

• Play and Filial Therapy (Kate’s practice) -https://www.playandfilialtherapy.com/
  
• Kate on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.katerenshaw/
• Kate on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/Play-Filial-Therapy-100057567515430/
• Kate on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-play
• Australasia Pacific Play Therapy Association (Find a Therapist) - https://appta.org.au/
• 62% of Children reporting maltreatment: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-03/major-child-maltreatment-report-findings/102160726
• Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs): Summary of evidence and impacts - https://emergingminds.com.au/resources/adverse-childhood-experiences-aces-summary-of-evidence-and-impacts/

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Our guest today is Dr. Kate Renshaw, who is a play and filial therapist, and who developed an evidence-based approach to mental health and wellbeing in education called TORA or the Teacher's Optimal Relationship Approach. Kate and I are going to talk about play therapy and how that can be a useful tool for families experiencing School Can't. Also the importance of a shared approach between the home and the school settings and the critical role of the student teacher relationship in education. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Well, Dr. Kate Renshaw, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast today.

Dr Kate Renshaw 1:02

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Leisa Reichelt 1:04

Let us get started by just hearing a little bit about you. Tell us about how it is that you came to be doing the work that you're doing today.

Dr Kate Renshaw 1:13

Yeah, it's kind of a long and winding road, a non-traditional path. I've started to realize, but I started off, as a teenager myself at school with friends that were struggling. And I was starting to realize that I wanted to support people and find a way to be one of the helpers. And so I wanted to be an art therapist and my school, guidance officer was like, you know, this was Northern New South Wales on the coast in the late nineties without much internet, if any. They were like, if you find out how to do that, come back and tell me. So I forged my own pathway. I did psychology and then ended up, down in Melbourne doing art therapy at La Trobe, the Masters. But ended up, going to the UK halfway through my masters and I fully intended to finish it off. And I started working as a school counselor in primary schools in a very complex social economic landscape in South Yorkshire after the coal mining closures of the 1980s. So intergenerational poverty and I fell in love with working in primary schools and realized that I needed more than just art. I needed everything in my therapy room, which is what led me to play therapy. I wanted to work with children and families and school systems and play therapy has provided that. And I was lucky enough, not only was I working in that borough, it was a borough that was doing really innovative things in South Yorkshire. We had a borough wide service for schools for prevention of permanent exclusion or expulsion. And they also had a school refusal program, which I, you know, connecting in with your program today. That got me thinking about that a little bit.'cause that was early two thousands. And so in many places those supports didn't exist.

Leisa Reichelt 3:02

It feels like we started hearing a lot about school refusal or School Can't kind of post COVID, didn't we? But prior to that, not so much at all.

Dr Kate Renshaw 3:10

No, and certainly not here in Australia. When I returned to Australia, which is about 13 years ago now, I ended up continuing the research I started on at the University of York in the UK, and finishing and progressing into a PhD here at Deakin University in Australia. And that was around furthering this approach I'd developed for teachers to be able to gain a little bit of knowledge and some skills from the world to play therapy to use in their everyday relational moments. That teacher child relationship became a real interest to me looking at the ability for children to attend school, feel safe at school relationally, and engage and learn and be happy and thrive. And so I spent nine years researching that while also training play therapists on a Master's in play therapy here in Australia too. And now I kind of do lots of different things. I've ended up doing a lot of advocacy work, I fell into that through the NDIS announcement, which is over 18 months ago now. And I also work in a school one day a week'cause I really feel like I always learn from the children and families and teachers, and it's my favorite day of the week.

Leisa Reichelt 4:21

Amazing. That is so cool. For people who are not familiar with play therapy, talk us through it. It sounds very fun. How does it work?

Dr Kate Renshaw 4:30

Yeah, it's interesting that it sounds fun. That's a good thing for it to sound in terms of it is a therapy designed for children, so it's a developmentally sensitive pediatric psychotherapy. If you are working with a play therapist who is masters or equivalent trained. Then you're working with a highly trained specialist who has done significant amount of clinical practice, supervised practice, probably their own personal therapy, which is a really interesting one in the mental health landscape here in Australia. Not everyone that provides psychological support has to have worked on their own content. And so those professionals, they are doing work that could range anywhere from, I like to say I work from conception to 18 and beyond. And so play therapy is really a way of children being able to express themselves, explore the things that are important to them, just like adult talk therapy would be for adults, make sense of things, work through things, perhaps even find solutions to tricky things that they're experiencing. And it's predominantly practiced in a humanistic framework. There are other theoretical frameworks, but a lot of the evidence base for play therapy, which is really strong evidence base, is based within that humanistic school of thought. So very much came from Carl Rogers. And Virginia Axline operationalized play therapy under Carl Rogers in the 1940s. So this is not a new therapy. But in Australia it has experienced difficulties emerging because there are a lot of competing forces out there. There's a lot of privilege in some of the mental health landscape here in Australia and we've got a long way to go in terms of children having the right to choose and access the supports that they feel comfortable and confident with, and parents also having choice for their children.

Leisa Reichelt 6:25

Yeah, I think it's very common as a parent that you are like, okay, you go to a speech pathologist, you go to an OT, you go to a psychologist.

Dr Kate Renshaw 6:33

Yep. the APRA privileged professions there and there's a lot of history connected with that. And speaking with occupational therapy professors that were around when occupational therapy was in the exact position in Australia 20, 30 years ago, looking at that professionalization pathway. Once that has been injected through the APRA stream, that has skyrocketed in terms of understanding for and respect for, and that's something that I have been actively petitioning the government for as well for play therapy. And taking that developmentally sensitive and child rights space perspective and sometimes disability rights perspective depending on where the advocacy sits. I think there is a lot of strength in that too.

Leisa Reichelt 7:21

So if as a parent you are looking at different ways that you could be supporting your child, thinking particularly about kids who are unable to attend school and have got some distress around that, why might play therapy be a good option for parents to consider?

Dr Kate Renshaw 7:37

Yeah, I think, at the moment a lot of parents may consider this when they've exhausted other options. So as you said, they may have had a team of professionals, and I hear lots of parents say. I stopped taking them to X professional because they wouldn't talk and they'd just hide under the table or hide behind me. And you know, they ended up coming to a play therapist as kind of not a last option, but as another alternative because they tried a lot of things. At the school I work at, really, we put it front foot forwards. Really, we are trying to, enter relationships with families and children through play therapy first and foremost. And then we also may recommend or work as a team with other allied health professionals. So I think there's two very different ways of parents thinking about it. I would really strongly encourage parents to think about the flexibility of what their child may need, and if their child is indicating distress and uncertainty, then really thinking about how is my child going to be asked to communicate in this therapeutic intervention? Is that going to meet their needs? Is this intervention going to be through their primary language, which under the age of eight is play? And so that can help parents, start to go, okay, well maybe there's more than just those traditional options that I've been thinking of. When I work with families that have come and they may have some of those concerns that you're talking about, one of my favorite ways to work is using a therapy called filial therapy. It's a Latin term for son of or daughter of, so it's actually a family systemic intervention and it's got one of the strongest treatment effects in play therapy, which is why I like to use it because I like to follow the science. And so that actually entails working really closely with the parents and the family, which I love. And often I hear many parents talking about feeling like no one's ever asked them some of the questions that I get curious about with them. And they often experience a range of emotions around that. It can be really validating for many parents for a professional to want to know things that perhaps have been dismissed or haven't even been heard, and really taking a very holistic neuro, biological, social, psychos, all of, the aspects of whole child development, view of the child and the family and all of the systems around the family. And also becoming an advocate for that family or that child. Or supporting them in their pathways forward with other professionals. I do like to team that with working with a school using the approach that I researched and evidence-based for my PhD, which is called TORA, the Teacher's Optimal Relationship Approach. And why I like to do that is it means that if a child is struggling in those ways you described, everyone is on the same page. There's consistency and there's a relationally safe milieu. It's a therapeutic community. And I think that's really important for this work. So it's why I choose to work in the school I work in because it means that we can support families in this way. And then I train play therapists in this approach. So we've got play therapists right across the country that are Masters trained in play therapy, that practice filial therapy with families. They come to learn the TORA approach, and they can also then facilitate group play therapy. And so it covers a lot of bases because in therapeutic context there may be a rationale for individual therapy. There may be a rationale for family work, and sometimes even after those things, there can actually be a rationale for group play therapy that really supports children to step into social spaces, in a very gentle and scaffolded way. I love play therapists to be able to offer all of that to children, families, and communities. And that's really been a, a big goal of my work over the last two decades.

Leisa Reichelt 11:55

That's amazing. I think the idea that you've got, it's almost like a kind of a wraparound care, isn't it? Where they've got a consistency between how they're experiencing support at home and how they're experiencing support at school.

Dr Kate Renshaw 12:06

And knowing that most parents will want other tools to try. And I'm a parent myself, I feel like there's always more knowledge and tools for us to try, particularly if our children are indicating to us that they're still struggling even with the tools we've tried. And that's something I often talk about'cause I work with mums and dads. I find the tool metaphor particularly strong across the board. But, when I'm working with, some dads that might be thinking, what is this play all about? Are you gonna get me to play? We're gonna play? What?!

Leisa Reichelt 12:43

We need to do something serious here.

Dr Kate Renshaw 12:45

Yeah, and the play is serious.

Leisa Reichelt 12:47

Yeah.

Dr Kate Renshaw 12:48

And I often kind of will frame it in, you know, this is actually about providing additional tools so you have them in your pocket when it's off to school time and it's really tricky, or it's bedtime and it's really tricky. You've got more things you can reach for in your tool belt. And I find that quite an attractive metaphor for everyone.

Leisa Reichelt 13:08

Yeah, definitely. Hey, let's dig into the TORA, the work that you've been doing around helping support teachers to work more effectively with the kids in their classes. Tell me a little bit about what brought you to do work on that and what is it?

Dr Kate Renshaw 13:27

I was supporting children and families who were either had been permanently excluded from education and were then based in special educational schools for social, emotional, behavioral, and mental health difficulties. I was working in that setting and I was also supporting children at risk of that occurring that had been kind of flagged as concerning and may need support. And that's where I started to do some research and I did some research with teachers in schools and also other allied health professionals. So that helped me start that process. Then I did about 10 years of clinical practice in primary schools in the UK and that really informed, what I realize now was co-creation. So I'd be working with children, I'd be providing feedback to parents, to schools, to teachers. I'd be providing some micro skill development work for parents or for teachers, or I might be doing filial therapy with parents. What I was realizing was there was key themes of knowledge and key skills that were coming out time and time again as my go-to tools. So that's how TORA started to be developed. And I started running professional development in the UK and getting feedback from teachers. I was also running group play therapy, where instead of working with the parent we work with a teacher or a paraprofessional, and we train them to be co-facilitators of the group. And I found that to be a really special model. And working with principals, deputy principals, teachers, learning support officers, teaching assistants, taught me that other people have huge capacity to support and, under supervision and with ongoing supervised discussions and reflections, have a huge opportunity for growth and development too. So those two things came together in TORA and that makes TORA a little bit unique'cause there is professional development for teachers and school communities. But there is also in class observation and feedback of skill development and also how children are responding to the use of the skills. And that's delivered through the therapeutic skills that we use as play therapists. And so teachers in the focus groups that I ran, they were kind of like, the first time you came to observe me, I was really nervous and I really didn't want you to come in. Then you were really reassuring, and I actually really enjoyed it. I got so much out of someone actually wanting to support my practice that had not a sole focus on academic. They were focusing on me and the children I was teaching and our relationship. So that combination of having a highly trained facilitator who can deliver professional development, that helps teachers start to look through the lens of play therapy knowledge and skills, which is a different paradigm to education and teaching currently. It invites them. It's not a you must do this, it's a, let's see what resonates with you. Let's see what gets you curious. Maybe you could try a few things. Maybe there might be something that you think might be really needed based on some of the needs of the children in your class or your school community. And then it goes from there. And so, it is also about thinking about the whole school where possible. We might start off with a group of teachers and hopefully with a view or a plan to move through the school community.

Leisa Reichelt 17:02

We hear lots of stories of people who have a really great teacher in kindy and then go to year one and have a very, very different experience. And so that lack of consistency is definitely a thing. This might sound like a dumb question, Kate, but why? Why is that child teacher relationship so important.

Dr Kate Renshaw 17:20

I actually think it's a great question because it's not talked about enough in the wider scope of education. The research actually tells us it's the single most important indicator of children attending school, enjoying school, learning, and having great academic outcomes. So it's not some of the things that we might think it is, it's actually the strength and quality of the student teacher relationship. And I actually used a research instrument called the Student Teacher Relationship Scale, which is a standardized and normed instrument developed by a educational psychologist in the US. I was fascinated with being able to actually map individual student teacher relationships and map the change once a relationship approach was implemented into their teaching practice. And so this isn't meant to be something that teachers feel they have to find time for in their already busy schedule. It's not an add-on. It's actually meant to be seen as embedded within their interactions. So teachers actually described it as becoming a way of them being a teacher, and changing the lens they were viewing children. Honestly, the focus group data was so rich and wonderful to hear teachers experiences. And teachers experiences are really important to inform when we are developing things for teachers. In terms of their buy-in and them feeling excited and motivated and them feeling supported. One thing that I did find fascinating was some research around humanistic skills and TORA is based on humanistic skills, being used by the teacher supports the child, but the child and the teacher's mental health and wellbeing and engagement and enjoyment in school have an interrelationship. And so if the teacher's using humanistic skills with the child and the child's wellbeing's improving, it actually has like a emotional splashback for the teacher. So if we are thinking about teacher burnout and teachers really struggling, Having something that can actually be equally nourishing is really different. There's not a lot of that happening out there. And I actually hear parents in filial therapy say, I actually feel like I get something. It can be almost self-regulating using the skills if I'm co-regulating my child. And hearing those things you go, wow, there's not a lot of things that are talked about like that.

Leisa Reichelt 20:08

If you're gonna talk about the problems that TORA is seeking to solve in the school environment. How would you describe that? What are we trying to fix exactly?

Dr Kate Renshaw 20:19

I suppose the entry point for TORA is, mental health and wellbeing in school systems. As we know, children are struggling more than ever before. We know if humans don't have their mental health, everything else is impacted detrimentally. I think that's one of the biggest drivers. But it is also thinking about the idea that in school populations in Australia, 70% of children may experience childhood adversity, and that can range from poverty, mental health complexities for their own parents, homelessness, family violence. There's so many things that children experience themselves that can impact on their engagement in school and their wellbeing and their health. There's also 62% of children that experience maltreatment. Those figures are really high.

Leisa Reichelt 21:24

Yeah.

Dr Kate Renshaw 21:25

People find that super uncomfortable to hear because it's not something we like to hear about, but I feel that teachers are experiencing, they're on the coal face of supporting children every day that are coming to school bringing complexities with them, multiple complexities. And it's useful be aware that that's also one of the targets of TORA in that providing teachers some type of skills and tools to be able to provide positive childhood experiences that can counter adverse childhood experiences. So the ACEs research, I'm not sure if you've talked about that on your podcast it's called the largest single most important public health study you've never heard of, so it's apt that you haven't heard of it or talked about it yet. But ACEs actually is based on obesity research in the 1990s, late 1990s, and they found that people that were coming to an obesity clinic, that were doing everything right, that were trying their hardest to keep off the weight, and were taking the weight off only then for it to come back. What they realized when they dug deeper was they consistently had experienced different types of childhood adversity or maltreatment. And that was then predisposing them to additional challenges in adulthood. And so they've defined 10 ACEs and the ACEs research links with a lot of the, trauma research that's come out more in the last 20 years. But what we've also found is we have the healing balm and the shield. That we can both heal adversity and protect against future adversity in the form of positive childhood experiences of which teachers and parents can facilitate most of the seven defined positive childhood experiences. And TORA links with that, because TORA helps teachers focus on that provision. As really one of the most important things we can do for children, because that actually sets the stage for their lifelong physical health and mental health.

Leisa Reichelt 23:32

Kate, a lot of people who are listening to this and are hearing about the adverse childhood experiences. I imagine a lot of people are thinking, you know what? My kid was doing pretty well until they hit school, and school was an adverse childhood experience for the kid.

Dr Kate Renshaw 23:48

Yep. And so we have to kind of acknowledge that. The other thing that I find when I talk with parents is often we, may not have always examined our own experiences as well, and we may have experiences that we may have struggled with. Having that validation that it probably wasn't okay, that we also struggle with certain things and didn't receive support. But the support might now be here for their child and them as a family. And there's another layer to that too, because teachers are often never also supported to examine their own positive childhood experiences and their own adverse childhood experiences, how that informs the way they relate with others and form relationships and navigate things that they find stressful. We are talking about so many humans in these systems, aren't we?

Leisa Reichelt 24:42

And I think it is, it is very easy, isn't it? To overlook the fact that, the way that a teacher is gonna interact is gonna be very informed by their personal circumstances, their life history, what's going on for them right now? All of the demands that are being placed on them as well.

Dr Kate Renshaw 24:59

And I think the demands that are being placed on them is worth naming up because, and I think from the world of nursing and medical fronts, the concept of moral injury is a really interesting one where professionals are asked to do things that they may not fully be morally aligned with. And I think there is sometimes teachers that feel that they may not always agree with everything, but it's still their role to navigate certain things as well.

Leisa Reichelt 25:31

Have you got any examples that you can provide of when you've interacted with teachers and they've talked about how these moral injuries have come to pass.

Dr Kate Renshaw 25:42

Yeah, I think, I think even just their response to TORA's name is very particular because it doesn't have the word program in it. Teachers almost have an adverse reaction to the word program because they're like, I don't want another program, I almost feel like that's a sign of a moral injury. They have been asked to do so much extra. So many things that are beyond, sometimes their original scope. And that came out in my research. A lot of teachers were saying at that time they hadn't had any training in neuroscience. They hadn't had holistic training in child development. And that's a game changer because that can really help people view children in a developmentally sensitive way. And so some of the things they're observing make more sense and make more meaning, and the way they respond to them are very different than a compliance based framework. And so I think there's so many points in there where teachers are saying, this was really uncomfortable. This might not have been my first choice, or this was the way we were expected to do things.

Leisa Reichelt 27:05

So if your child is going to school and they have a teacher who is using TORA. The teacher's optimal relationship approach.

Dr Kate Renshaw 27:16

Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt 27:16

How would we know, what would we see that that teacher is doing differently as a result of what they've learned and using this model?

Dr Kate Renshaw 27:24

Yeah, that's a lovely thing to think about. I would say usually there's, I find even just the physical environment they're creating, I think there's a lot of thought that goes into how they can be a very relationally safe person and how the environment can be supporting them to do that. And then how do they even greet children as they come in, support them and, scaffold them into their day. Even just thinking of how does the teacher talk to my child? Are they kind of getting down at their level? What's their tone of voice? So there's a lot of science that teachers learn about all of those things that I'm putting out fairly simply for us to look at. But it makes a huge difference when I see teachers and I go and observe them. And see them doing that. They might also be quite empathic with children, so they might be not asking them how they're feeling, which as we know, often children go further into their shell. Please stop. I don't know how I'm feeling. Do you know how you're feeling? But they might actually be to use an empathic reflection, like, oh, might be a tricky morning this morning. We are gonna be doing X or Y and I'd love to be able to, you know, share that with you kind of thing. They might be being validating, but also scaffolding at the same time as kind of a joint validation and reassurance. We all know the opposite of that story, where it's like, just rip off the bandaid and it, it will be hard, but they'll be okay

Leisa Reichelt 29:04

So if I was gonna oversimplify it, Kate, is this really about teachers prioritizing building that one-on-one relationship with each individual kid based on where they're at and kind of seeing them as individuals.

Dr Kate Renshaw 29:20

That's definitely a big component of it. It's also using a lot of relational science in all of their language and verbal, nonverbal communication. And also how they set their day up and run it so children feel scaffolded prepared. They don't feel caught off guard or startled. So yeah, I think before TORA was TORA, it actually was named Therapeutic Language Skills, so it started off in that real language space and I think that's the heart and soul of how teachers use language so much to communicate and how can we make that playful and relational? So it helps them understand how they can practice in a way that aligns with that relational science of what children need to feel safe and secure, and activate that curiosity, that engagement, that learning. It can't be the learning first. It has to be through the relationship first.

Leisa Reichelt 30:28

So if you could give an example of a typical thing in a classroom that you might see

Dr Kate Renshaw 30:33

I actually had a parent say to me recently, once they realized I was working with them in filial therapy, so they were then viewing what was happening in the school through a bit of a different lens, and then they realized things like, actually it is a bit unusual that really big tall teachers would sit on the floor with little kids. That actually quite unusual, even for like prep to year six that teachers would actually be going to the children opposed to the children coming to them

Leisa Reichelt 31:07

Like getting out from behind the desk and sitting down on the mat with the kids.

Dr Kate Renshaw 31:11

and actually, I don't know, in the school I work at, I'm trying to even think if the teachers have desks. I feel like they don't even have their own, they're in the classroom with the children.

Leisa Reichelt 31:22

Yeah.

Dr Kate Renshaw 31:23

I would also say, schools that are integrating playful resources and play rich environments across the board. And I'm talking year six and beyond. I'd love more high schools. I think we get a lot of children. I feel like more and more children are not at high school. High school doesn't seem to be a very safe, inviting, enjoyable place. It seems to be very focused on academics, and of the enjoyable things have been stripped out. A lot of it.

Leisa Reichelt 31:59

I feel as though kids survive high school.

Dr Kate Renshaw 32:01

Yes, and surviving and thriving are two very different things. And we want thriving. And even the OECD is looking at thriving and holistic child thriving as a goal for education.

Leisa Reichelt 32:16

The other thing once you get to high school as well is that you no longer have one teacher, do you?

Dr Kate Renshaw 32:21

Yeah, you've got so many relationships.

Leisa Reichelt 32:23

A lot of kids really sort of lose their ability to attend school because they were very dependent on that teacher relationship. If they did have a good teacher relationship, and then you go into year seven and all of a sudden you, you don't have that. You might have a year teacher, a homeroom teacher, but like you don't see them.

Dr Kate Renshaw 32:42

Yes. And I think when the teachers therefore don't have a relational based model that they're practicing, then it can feel very inconsistent and almost a bit whiplash for children. Like going, over here, I feel like this teacher is like, gets me and is warm and friendly, and over here I have to survive it. And I'm going between those two all day.

Leisa Reichelt 33:07

And we do hear from the School Can't research, it's really clear that not feeling seen, not feeling understood, not feeling like they have someone there who is safe to be themselves with is one of the primary factors of kids not feeling safe at school, not feeling like they can attend school. So these relationships are incredibly important.

Dr Kate Renshaw 33:28

We want our children to have opportunities to learn and grow and develop. And acknowledging that means that we also are acknowledging that child development research for decades has been telling us that first and foremost felt and experienced safety, not someone telling a child they feel safe and this environment is safe they have to genuinely feel it and expect for it to be real is actually the foundational stone for everything else. And if we're trying to skip past that, our chances of actually engaging in deep, genuine, enjoyable learning, reduces.

Leisa Reichelt 34:10

Yeah. I'm just thinking too, like a lot of people who are listening to this Kate, are probably in some pretty stressful circumstances at the moment. Finding, you know, their kids are in distress. Parents often in distress, under a lot of pressure from schools. Probably what we all need is to find space for a little bit more playfulness. Just open that up a little bit, lighten it up a little bit.

Dr Kate Renshaw 34:36

Absolutely. Play is the opposite of depression and anxiety. And often it is the last thing that we have on our list of to-dos or our menu of possibilities. And sometimes that's the same case in schools too. It's kind of what is seen to happen when everything else has happened first.

Leisa Reichelt 34:55

Yeah.

Dr Kate Renshaw 34:56

but again, if we can, I like to say snack on play regularly. Infuse play into our daily lives, both as parents and for our children. One of the most powerful things, I think if there are parents out there that are in that scenario, you're talking about. Giving themself permission to lean into play, leaning into play with their children. And that doesn't mean they have to physically, pick up Barbie and be the character. Although I would advise it'cause it could be very fun. But even being able to watch over and delight in their children while they're playing, that might even be Minecraft. I actually am not a gamer because I didn't grow up with games. I grew up playing in the bush with sticks but my children who are now teenagers have had to teach me some gaming because I wanted to watch and delight over them. And I wanted to understand the games that they were playing. And they famously have to save me in Minecraft'cause I always drown. Mum's drowning again, like quick come rescue mum. And so us joining with our children in whatever way we can is often also a real change agent in ourselves, in our own wellbeing. In their wellbeing. And if parents are really struggling and they've tried everything, I would really recommend considering connecting with a play therapist. When I work with parents, I would always be recommending filial therapy because I wanna support them the best I can and I want them to feel empowered, not feel alone in what they're struggling with.

Leisa Reichelt 36:34

Yeah, that's very sensible. I loved what you said about joining the kids on their screen games, because I think even when I think about it, I have a son who struggles with school. He's in his room on screens all the time, and when I think, okay, let's do some play, I am like, well, first of all, I have to get him out of his room and then I have to come up with an activity And the idea of like, well, maybe I just go in there with him and play. I'm so hopeless at the, at all the controls. It's, yeah.

Dr Kate Renshaw 37:04

Kids find that absolutely hilarious and quite empowering for them'cause they realize, they actually know some stuff.

Leisa Reichelt 37:09

Oh yeah, like it, his, his mastery is on full display when you see how bad I am at like hitting the right button at the right time.

Dr Kate Renshaw 37:17

And isn't that amazing for children to feel that because children often don't get to experience a lot of empowerment that adults aren't experiencing in that moment.

Leisa Reichelt 37:26

Yeah.

Dr Kate Renshaw 37:28

and there's a lot of empowerment that's needed for children that are struggling with going to school. So I think you've hit on something there. And, and I would always say if I don't know how to enter into something, I would get curious with a child. So I'd be there going, you know, knocking on the door going, oh, I wonder what you're up to. Maybe I could, have a squiz or, Ooh, do you know, I didn't know much about that game. I haven't learned a new game for a while. I know I'm not good, but I know you do help me out too, so I would always enter through that curiosity.

Leisa Reichelt 38:00

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that is great advice. I do have to watch a lot of YouTube videos of people doing Geometry Dash levels these days, which, you know, it's, it is a mixed blessing, I'll be honest with you, but,

Dr Kate Renshaw 38:12

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 38:13

but

Dr Kate Renshaw 38:13

The things that we learn through our children though is quite incredible.

Leisa Reichelt 38:17

absolutely.

Dr Kate Renshaw 38:18

and I think when we look at that as an opportunity, It can be a really, nourishing thing for us too.

Leisa Reichelt 38:25

Fantastic. Kate, if people wanna find out more about TORA or play therapy in general, where, what do you recommend? Where will we go?

Dr Kate Renshaw 38:35

I'm sure probably in the show notes you might be able to put a few links. My private practice, Play and Filial Therapy, is probably a good place to start. If people are looking for a play therapist in their area, the APPTA website has a'find a therapist' option. If they're interested in professional development, also something I can support with across Australia. Every state and territory has TORA facilitators. Also I have a Instagram professional profile that I'd be sharing stuff that parents might find accessible and Facebook too.

Leisa Reichelt 39:10

Absolutely. We'll pop all of those into the show notes so people can take a look and find out more if they want to.

Dr Kate Renshaw 39:15

Wonderful.

Leisa Reichelt 39:16

Kate, Thank you so much for sharing with us today. Really appreciate it.

Dr Kate Renshaw 39:20

Oh, it's been, really interesting talking with you and really thinking and digging deep into some of the questions. So hopefully the listeners find some valuable bits and pieces along the way, and I wish everyone well on their journey. Parenting in general is a ride. And when we have any type of complexity or adversity thrown in there, it becomes even more challenging. So, I hope listeners take a moment to fit your oxygen mask to perhaps through some car karaoke or whatever floats your boat dancing in the kitchen.

Leisa Reichelt 39:51

I think that's it.

Dr Kate Renshaw 39:52

I'm happy to write you a prescription for play.

Leisa Reichelt 39:54

Well, I hope there was something inspiring for you in that conversation. I have put links to the resources and the research we discussed in the show notes. So please feel free to dig in further if there's something that caught your attention. If you found our podcast helpful, I would be so grateful if you could take a moment to subscribe or give us a rating or a review. This really makes a huge difference in helping us get the podcast into the ears of more School Can't families and professionals who haven't yet found the School Can't community and all the information and support we share. If you have some feedback for us or a suggestion for a future topic or a guest, or perhaps you're inspired to share your own lived experience story, which we would love. You can use the Fan Mail link in the episode notice to drop us a text or a voicemail, or drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. And I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or a carer in Australia and you're feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parents' Helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Please do not hesitate to reach out for extra support. Thanks again for listening. We'll talk again soon. Take care.