#58 - I Missed Half My Schooling and Never Knew Why - Judith's Lived Experience

Judith came across School Can't Australia on the internet and suddenly, something that had puzzled her for over sixty years finally had a name.

Now 66, Judith grew up missing roughly half her schooling. Nobody called it School Can't. Nobody really knew what to do. And for most of her adult life, she'd assumed her experience was unique until she stumbled across the School Can't community and realised how familiar her story would sound to families navigating this today.

In this episode, Judith looks back on her experience with the perspective only six decades can bring, and shares:

• The early signs and how they compounded into a pattern nobody had the language to explain
• Why the conversations that might have helped never happened 
• What she now believes she actually needed, and how different it looks from simply being made to attend school
• What happened to her education, her career, and her life and why it turned out better than anyone might have predicted

Judith's story is a reminder that School Can't is not new and that the cost of misunderstanding it has always been real. It's also, ultimately, a hopeful one.

This one is for families in the middle of it who need to hear that life on the other side is possible. And for educators and health professionals who want to understand what it looks like from the inside, across a whole lifetime.

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the School Can't Experience podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Now, we are doing something a little different in this lived experience episode. Usually, we are talking to a parent or a young person about their current or recent School Can't experiences. But in this episode, we are going back in time. We're going to be meeting Judith, whose experience of School Can't dates back six decades, sixty years. With the wisdom of time and plenty of opportunity for reflection, Judith can now take us right back into her experience in the grade three classroom and also help us think about conversations that never really happened with her parents at the time. And she definitely helps us to counter the idea that School Can't is something new that just happens to kids today. I think it's a truly fascinating insight into the School Can't experience, and I hope you enjoy our conversation Well, Judith, thank you so much for joining us on our School Can't Experience podcast today. Really appreciate you taking the time.

Judith 1:10

Well, I'm delighted to be invited along.

Leisa Reichelt 1:13

Well, you are a little bit of an unusual guest for us on the podcast

Judith 1:16

I am.

Leisa Reichelt 1:19

Usually, we're talking to mums or parents or kids themselves who are talking about their current experiences or very recent experiences with School Can't. But we are going to talk to you about your experience of School Can't, which are not so recent. How did this come to pass, Judith? Why are we talking about this now?

Judith 1:37

Let's give some context about how distant this is. I have just turned 66, so we're talking about things that started about 60 years ago. So I was just an ordinary, school girl. Shy. My mother said I didn't like going to kindergarten, so, it was sort of just an ongoing thing of shyness, not wanting to be left with other people, clinging to my mother, that type of thing. And then, I just ended up not really wanting to go to school and getting my way, and I think I ended up missing half my schooling. And I didn't know anyone else. I had never heard of anyone else who did that. It-- I don't know whether it simply wasn't a thing in those days, 60 years ago, or I just missed information about other people. But it's always seemed very strange to me that I was actually able to get away with it. And so when I came across your program, School Can't, I was just on the internet and I came across it, and I was fascinated. And so, I went to this talk. And I think it was Tiffany who was presenting the talk, and then we had a talk afterwards. And I realised that my situation was actually very, very common. I think I've been interested because it has affected me a lot in my whole life. Not just having missed school, I mean, that obviously had a big impact on various things. But, the reasons why I missed school have continued on.

Leisa Reichelt 3:34

So when you describe it, hearing you say,"I didn't want to go to school, and I got my way."

Judith 3:41

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 3:43

Can we dig a little bit more into the,"I didn't want to go to school"? Because I think a lot of people do look at kids today and go,"You know, just'cause they're not in the mood for school doesn't mean they shouldn't go. We all have to do things we're not in the mood for."

Judith 3:54

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 3:55

That's not what's going on for kids today, as far as we know. If you're going to dig into that a little bit more and remember what it was that really made you, like, urgently not want to go to school, what do you remember?

Judith 4:07

Yes. Well, as I said it, you know, I was shy and clingy. But I also had a lot of problem with eczema and, at around school age, starting school age, I then started having problems with asthma as well. But it was the eczema that was the big problem because, well, partly, you know, I wasn't feeling too well. But it made me feel as though I was different from the kids. And if I missed a little bit of school because of sickness of any kind, then that would be noticed and the kids would... I don't know. I felt like they were pointing at me or looking at me. But sometimes I'd be going to school with bandages on my arms, you know, with eczema. I remember at one point, I must have had sort of infections or something and, but certainly there would be you know, long bandages on my arms sort of quite often, or I'd have dry skin on my face and kids would point and tease me. and, So, even if people were being kind, like I remember in, I think it must have been grade two, an older girl came up and she was all concerned, very nice and friendly, wondering what I'd done to myself, and it was simply that I had bandages on. And I found it so embarrassing being noticed, being, well, even asked what I had done. I mean, I hadn't done anything. Well, I mean, I was scratching. I was always scratching. But at this stage it was very much my absences from school were directly linked to my physical difficulties. And both my parents were very sympathetic, of course. So if I wasn't feeling very well, they weren't forcing me to go to school. And I can remember having some nice times with Mum, you know, I was in grade one and grade two, staying home with Mum and we'd do paper dolls together, and I'm sure we had other toys. But somehow paper dolls with Mum, you know, just that sort of her spending time with me doing a little activity. And of course, that just makes it more comforting. If I'm not feeling very well, I mean, the eczema really just would make me absolutely beside myself, and I would be scratching, probably crying. I can't remember. but then...

Leisa Reichelt 6:46

conducive to, concentrating on maths, is it?

Judith 6:49

Oh, man. No. But then, so going to the online talk that Tiffany was giving, I was hearing all these common reasons.

Leisa Reichelt 7:00

Mm.

Judith 7:01

Ill health, I mean, you know, eczema, childhood eczema. That's, you know, tick number one. I tick that box. Then, at the end of grade two, we moved. Now, I, I don't think I found the move stressful, but that's tick box number two.

Leisa Reichelt 7:19

Do you remember having friends in those early days at school?

Judith 7:22

I did have friends, but I don't think I, was very close to them, and I think I actually remember not minding that I was leaving them. And I can remember, right at the end of grade two after we've moved, I can remember sitting outside in the playground with, with other kids that I didn't know, and that was fine, and I remember, some positive things. There was one girl who drew beautiful horses. But then here comes box three that I ticked. Grade three. I will name no names. I remember her name. My parents remember her name. We have discussions still about this teacher. She was a piece of work. This woman would call people to the front to face the class, stand there at the front as a dunce. And, because I missed a lot of school, I'd often get things wrong. Oh, and, something that I had no idea about until I was an adult, but I seem to have, something that's called an auditory sequencing problem. And that means that if people do letters or numbers to me- I will only hear a few of them, and I won't necessarily get them in the right order. So I'm fine with written things. But it would mean that if you were asked, to add five and seven and you heard the five but didn't quite catch the seven, and my times table was never any good anyway because, I didn't go to school enough to do it. So I spent a lot of time in front of the class, facing the class. And my best friend, she was a lovely, lovely girl, my best friend. She couldn't do a capital H, and both her first name and her last name started with H. And so she often accompanied me at the front of the class, We were standing at the front, facing the rest of the class. This is mortifying. But I also, continued to have problems with my eczema. So for instance, if I have bandages on my arms, focused on the elbow, if I get too hot, I have to take the jumper off because it's going to be bad for the eczema, but how can I take the jumper off if my arms are stiff? So I'd have to ask the teacher for help, and that was just, again, mortifying. But she also bullied my mother. My mother did have to talk to her about me, you know, can I wear a cardigan instead? And no, that wasn't approved because it wasn't school uniform. And my mother was supposed to go into the classroom to see how bad my handwriting was, and Mum chickened out, and Dad had to come. So Dad was standing at the front of the class with the teacher, with me there writing. This is in front of the class. This is not after school. This is in front of the class. So this is, the grade three was when I started to feel sick. You know, the nausea, you know, you're fine on the weekends. Nothing wrong with you on the weekend. Monday morning, I feel sick. And the thing is, I did feel sick. Of course, I felt sick. Nerves, stress,

Leisa Reichelt 11:06

right? It's anxiety.

Judith 11:07

anxiety.

Leisa Reichelt 11:08

Yeah. loads of us who have got little kids who have gone through this experience will know this is a very common thing that one of the first things you hear is like,"Oh, I've got a tummy ache. I've got a tummy ache

Judith 11:17

I've got a tummy ache, and it was a real tummy ache. But, what can you do?

Leisa Reichelt 11:23

You could probably stop ritually humiliating the child in front of the entire class on a regular basis. That would be a good start.

Judith 11:30

But the thing is, you know, all the other kids were going to school. I never noticed any other kids missing school, but of course, I wasn't there half the time. So who knows who was. But everyone else seemed happy. But, I mean, you add this humiliation onto the eczema and then the problem with the asthma just starting then. And, having been shy. It's a recipe for disaster. Grade five, I had a nice teacher, but I was still feeling sick. Feeling like I just couldn't face it. And my parents were just so nice and loving. I just felt so safe at home. Now, at this stage, my parents are still kinda, well, I won't say happy that I'm missing school, but they're not objecting to me about it. I know from my mother, the main problem wasn't my absence from school, but my eczema.

Leisa Reichelt 12:34

Yeah,

Judith 12:34

And I knew, you know, I, I was constantly scratching. And Mum just worried about me. I've got a younger brother and sister, and they went to school.

Leisa Reichelt 12:44

Mm.

Judith 12:45

Well, my brother wasn't necessarily happy about it. My sister loved school. So I was the one with health problems and the school problems. The other two kids kind of had to fend for themselves in terms of, you know, just getting on with it. But mum was worried about me. The problem came when I was a teenager because, I was, you know, another one of these revolting teenagers, and mum and I used to have fights. My mum and dad sometimes did have fights, not so much when I was in primary school, but because mum would be worried. Worried about my eczema, worried about me missing school. And mum was also aware of something that I wasn't aware, and that's the socialisation. This is where I missed out.

Leisa Reichelt 13:42

Mm.

Judith 13:43

But teenage years, I was a different school for high school, and there the headmistress was very nice, but she would ring up mum from time to time and point out that it was not acceptable for me to miss so much schooling. And mum would come down to my room and take it out on me. She'd yell at me. And then dad would tell her not to take it out on me, and she'd be screaming at him. So I would be listening to my parents. Dad wouldn't get angry. And this would then be a problem that dad was almost trying to protect me from mum's anger. So mum would come storming down to my room, yell at me. Bit later on dad would come and be nice to me. Might bring me lollies, for instance, right? Now, this then meant that it set up a perfect situation for me to ignore any urging my mother might do to get me to school,'cause I was just backed up by my father. And at this stage, it wasn't until I became a parent myself and my son started school that I realised the important socialisation here.

Leisa Reichelt 15:11

Do you feel that your dad, whilst trying to support you, maybe let you down a little bit at that point?

Judith 15:20

This is a very good question and, and my answer is very complicated because it's a yes and no thing.

Leisa Reichelt 15:27

Mm.

Judith 15:27

In terms of preparing me for adult life, yes, Mum really had a point. And I've spoken to Mum after years of having renegotiated my relationship with Mum, we're then able to talk about it. And because she was aware of the importance of my sort of getting involved with other children. I mean, I was basically avoiding the children. All the teachers after the grade three were nice teachers. It was mainly the kids I was avoiding. And so Mum was trying to do the right thing, but Dad didn't appreciate that importance. He was helping me cope emotionally with, you know, the fact that I was supposed to be at school and, coping with Mum being angry and upset. Mum suffered from depression too, and to be so worried all the time, year after year after year. My allergies were continuing to be a problem. The asthma was worse. Started getting the, allergic eye things. that then added to the problems at school. You know, if I turned up at school with red eyes because of allergies, the boys said,"Oh, don't cry." That kind of thing. So there were kind of, reasons why I was distressed at school. But I think it then became also a habit. And so I would not feel stressed because I knew that nobody could really make me go to school. I mean, it's almost as though I sort of had browbeaten my parents enough that, it was hardly worth their effort, forcing me. Now, from time to time, they would kind of, maybe a Monday morning or something, Dad or Mum might sort of try to cajole me into going. Both my parents really cared, really loved me, and it was sort of say, I'll drive you to school, and if you don't feel you can do the whole day, we'll come collect you, at lunchtime." there's one thing though, and I think this is something maybe other parents haven't thought about, and that is I wouldn't be able to make a decision usually on the day. It really would take quite a bit of, of self-confidence building, talking to myself. Talk myself into being able to cope. And I, you know, I did attend half the time. I mean, you know, I wasn't missing all of school. But I would have to talk myself into, yes, you know, maybe by Thursday, maybe I will have got up my courage and the week won't be so long. But because I never, I never expressed that to my parents. I think I was deliberately keeping that a secret from them, not wanting them to know kind of... It was almost as though that was up my sleeve. But also maybe it was just that we never had conversations like when it wasn't... We weren't talking about me getting to school at a time when I wasn't supposed to be getting ready to go to school. So we weren't having the safe time talks on the weekend about how I felt, you know, what the problems were, what they could do.

Leisa Reichelt 19:24

Yeah.

Judith 19:27

we were really in an impasse, you know?

Leisa Reichelt 19:30

They weren't able to get that understanding from you

Judith 19:33

Yes, that's right.

Leisa Reichelt 19:35

the topic only came up in the heat of it.

Judith 19:37

In the heat of it. That, that's it.

Leisa Reichelt 19:39

yeah. I don't know if you've come across Dr. Ross Greene who talks about how important it is to do that kind of collaboration

Judith 19:46

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 19:48

at a time when you're not experiencing the problem.

Judith 19:50

That's,

Leisa Reichelt 19:51

it

Judith 19:52

that's it.

Leisa Reichelt 19:53

a calm setting when it's not urgent. And then you can do that exploration and discover and understand what the problem is better so that you can come up with a solution. I think you've illustrated that really well.

Judith 20:05

Yeah. Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 20:07

but as you're doing this all, you're in high school, you're getting there maybe 50% of the time

Judith 20:12

Yes. Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 20:14

the latter part of the week because it takes you days to psych

Judith 20:17

not

Leisa Reichelt 20:17

up or?

Judith 20:18

I mean, it could be, but, I had another trick up my sleeve. I could go on Monday, and then we'd have sport in the afternoon, and I could run ferociously, having a great time on the sport field, get asthma,'cause of course the asthma medication wasn't so good in those days. I remember Ventolin came out when I was 14. One of the hospitals in Perth, used me as a guinea pig on the treadmill doing readings of how well I was breathing before and after Ventolin. so an asthma attack really was a good excuse to miss the rest of the week.

Leisa Reichelt 21:04

Mm. Mm. Right. So even when you did attend, it was out of strategy to attend the least possible.

Judith 21:09

yeah. Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 21:11

Yeah.

Judith 21:11

Now I liked the learning, but there was never really any sense that I had to do learning at home. Right? Say, if, a child is away for two weeks as an odd sort of situation, you'd expect the teacher to give them a bit of work to take home so they could keep up. I didn't have that. I mean, there should have been truancy officers, but my parents were sort of respected in the community. My father's a church minister. But because I wasn't doing the schoolwork away, I wasn't keeping up in class. I mean, think of maths. Now, it was all right in English, I mean, I was good with language. I was reading a lot at home, you know, really spent... I mean, sometimes I would just miss school'cause I was enjoying reading a book. But, of course, books are my safe zone. I mean I still do this. If I've had a stressful day, I will spend the whole night reading a book because I need... That's my self-soothing. You know, I still get stressed, still don't like meeting people. I mean, I can be outgoing, but I'm also very introverted as well.

Leisa Reichelt 22:27

I'm sure many people relate to that. On the book reading thing, a friend of mine introduced me to a term which was bibliotherapy, and I'm like,"Yes!"

Judith 22:34

Oh, I love that. That's a nice Greek term. Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 22:38

mm, So you talked about the school wasn't sending any work home, the truancies officers just assumed that all was well because you have respectable parents. Were there any other alternatives to just going to that school that were available or considered that you remember?

Judith 22:54

I don't know that there were any things. I mean, as I said, maybe this was a wider problem than I was aware of. But I'd never heard of anyone else missing school like this. I'd never heard of people sort of homeschooling their children. These days, there seem to be so many more options.

Leisa Reichelt 23:19

When my mum was at school, she did a lot of correspondence school,

Judith 23:23

Ah, well, of course.

Leisa Reichelt 23:24

which by chance they had to do because they were out on a farm

Judith 23:27

That's right.

Leisa Reichelt 23:28

But, but I

Judith 23:29

That's right.

Leisa Reichelt 23:29

she would say in retrospect, that kinda saved her educational career because when she did have to come back and go to school, it didn't go very well. But also in those days, leaving school at 14 was not an uncommon thing, was it? Mm.

Judith 23:42

Yes. Well, I ended up having 14 years of school,

Leisa Reichelt 23:47

Mm. Mm.

Judith 23:48

because I was doing so badly. So, but the thing is that in the final year, I actually started doing revision at home and started learning quite a bit, finding it very interesting. Got high marks, got very high marks,

Leisa Reichelt 24:06

Wow.

Judith 24:08

so got into university no problems. And got high marks usually at uni, although I did miss if, if I didn't like the lecturer or something, I did miss a lot then.

Leisa Reichelt 24:23

Given your experience of school, why did you stay with it that long, though? Why did you not drop out as soon as you could?

Judith 24:29

Yeah, that's a very good question. And I haven't really thought about this. I think, so I'm just kind of theorizing off the cuff here. A couple of things. I was very immature. I had no plans for the future. Didn't really accept reality. I was spending a lot of time, not just reading books, but a vivid fantasy life.

Leisa Reichelt 24:58

Mm. Mm.

Judith 24:59

My parents were both from sort of academic, high academic, they'd both been to university and things like that. I think it was just assumed that I was aiming for university. I certainly couldn't have got a job anywhere else. I mean, let's face it, I was not prepared for life. I was avoiding life. I remember when I was about 16, my mother asked me, just out of the blue, and just asked me what I wanted to do when I was grown up. And I said perfectly seriously that I wanted to be a hermit. Not even thinking that that was not a valid option. My other choice at that age was I wanted to be a pirate. So I was very immature And this was the really crucial thing that I missed with school. The learning to deal with other people, getting a sense of reality, learning from my peers. But somehow with university, because I had no idea what I wanted to do, I simply did what I was interested in at the time, which was Latin. When you're spending a lot of time at home, not supposed to do any other thing, well, you learn all sorts of things. I started teaching myself Latin at the age of 14. Did it actually as a subject in year 12.

Leisa Reichelt 26:30

Hmm.

Judith 26:31

And so there I was doing Latin. Had to do Ancient Greek if I wanted to major in Latin. Decided I preferred Greek. Did some extra years at university. So for parents worrying about education, don't. Keep up with the education because it is important, but don't worry if there are gaps. It can be filled in. For me, it's the social things.

Leisa Reichelt 26:56

back to that though, Judith, right? Because you obviously, you feel really strongly that your lack of attendance at school has had a big impact on your ability socially.

Judith 27:07

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 27:08

At the same time, sounds to me as though it was exactly the social situation that was making school extremely difficult

Judith 27:16

It was. It was.

Leisa Reichelt 27:18

How do you square that? What could you have done differently?

Judith 27:25

I don't know. Part- partly, possibly because there seemed to be no other option at the time. So I've, I've had my whole life assuming there was no other option. My parents could have simply bullied me into going to school.

Leisa Reichelt 27:47

There's no saying that that would have worked out well, though.

Judith 27:51

It could have gone very badly. I did, as a teenager, some of my scratching almost developed into being a form of self-harm. So it could have gone badly. I could have experimented more with self-harm. But one thing I would say, if my parents and I had been talking about things more, and if we'd been sort of brainstorming options, one thing that I feel might have been good is if I was doing more social things out of school. So rather than being forced to remain for a certain number of hours in a very vulnerable position of having to sit still, surrounded by a lot of other school kids. But if there were more social things, that could have been good. Learning to deal with just chatting to other people. One of the problem was that because my official reason, and the official reason on the many notes my parents had to write for the school was that I was sick. And I mean, okay, there were physical things. There was the psychosomatic illnesses, as well as the actual physical. I mean, you know,'cause I mean, asthma, you can get asthma just from stress.

Leisa Reichelt 29:25

Mm-hmm.

Judith 29:26

I mean, it's quicker if you go running around the playing field. But,

Leisa Reichelt 29:30

Mm-hmm.

Judith 29:32

I can see the psychosomatic illnesses being kind of a key thing there. But, because I was officially ill, it meant that I wasn't out doing anything else. I was basically left alone in my bedroom. In my pajamas, teaching myself Latin, teaching myself the piano, that kind of thing.

Leisa Reichelt 29:55

Judith, I wonder if you were growing up today, I wonder whether you would've been like a homeschooled kid who had a whole bunch of kinda outside activities, which was where you'd get your socialisation

Judith 30:08

Absolutely.

Leisa Reichelt 30:09

Right? And so the answer isn't necessarily mum and dad should have forced me to go to school. It's like, it would've been great if there was a different kind of way to get educated that combined the learning and the socialising in a way that would actually work for you and you know who you are as a person..

Judith 30:25

Absolutely. At the moment, I tutor part-time, and I've had a couple of home-schooled students. One of them has all sorts of outdoor activities. Sports, choir, music, all these different things. I should point out that I was teaching Latin. I continued with classics. I am mainly, interested in Ancient Greek. So, I've got a career path that led all the way from my interest.

Leisa Reichelt 31:00

Tell us about what you do professionally now. What has your professional pathway been?

Judith 31:05

Well, professional pathway has been quite checkered because in Australia there's not a lot of call for classics. And, I was very, very lucky that after finishing my, first degree, in Perth, I got a scholarship to Cambridge, which I mean, it was wonderful, but it should have been the answer to my career. But I failed.

Leisa Reichelt 31:37

Oh, no.

Judith 31:38

You know, I still had problems with health. I mean, my asthma's so much worse there. I was a single parent of a child who was-- My son was nine when we went, first went, and he was being bullied, and so he didn't want to go to school. But so Having failed that, which would have opened all doors. I would have just got a position and stayed in the position and be the Professor of Ancient Greek. but I came crawling home back to Perth, did another PhD. I am a sucker for study, okay? So then I was teaching, I went back to the UK where there's so much work in Classics. So I was working for ten years part-time, at various universities teaching Latin, Ancient Greek, history of, classical civilization, that sort of thing. Loving it. Now, just imagine having gone from shy, avoiding people, to having to stand up in a lecture, right? I love teaching. It was so fascinating. And people would enjoy my classes, you know, particularly if we had a small language class. I love teaching ancient Greek and Latin because it bends your mind. And so I would just get enthusiastic and outgoing and, it just gives me such a buzz. So here I am, someone who avoided school, and now I'm teaching and I love it. So, the world's your oyster however little you go to school.

Leisa Reichelt 33:32

Yeah. it's a fantastic story, Judith. I love it. And so much of it is about, like, when in time were you born, right?

Judith 33:40

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 33:40

I was talking to my GP this morning actually about, how much the world has changed since when my son was really little, and then little kids today, and how much more we know about all of compared to like, 15 years ago, let alone 60 years ago. So much has changed. But also, I mean, story's lovely about really helping us understand the difference between attending school versus wanting to learn. It's wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it

Judith 34:06

Oh,

Leisa Reichelt 34:06

it.

Judith 34:07

I'm absolutely thrilled to be able to talk about it, and if there's been any tips or anything that anyone gets from this, that's just wonderful.

Leisa Reichelt 34:18

Yeah. I'm sure it will resonate with plenty of people. Thank you so much. Well, if anyone is telling you that School Can't is a modern phenomenon, you know where to send them now. I think it's always been around, and it's just been hidden by shame and not talked about and maybe called different names. Judith gives us such powerful evidence that attending school has got little or nothing to do with having a desire to learn or with valuing education. If you know someone who needs to hear this episode, please take a moment to pass it on to them. Perhaps you could also take a moment to subscribe or give us a quick rating or a review. These things make a huge difference in helping us get the podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids and who have not yet found the School Can't community and all the information and support that we share. If you have some feedback for us, or a suggestion for a future topic or guest, or perhaps you've been inspired to share your own lived experience story. You can use the fan mail link in the episode notes, or just drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Please don't hesitate to reach out for some extra support. you again for listening. We'll talk again soon. Take care