#65 - Unmasking Education: What Masking Costs & How to Spot It with Millie Carr

Millie Carr is an educator, inclusive outreach coach, and late-diagnosed AuDHDer who has spent years supporting schools to build more inclusive environments through her Unmasking Education work. She's also a parent, her daughter, diagnosed autistic in grade one, is now in year 12 and completing Virtual Schools Victoria after years of high-masking at school took its toll.

In this conversation, Millie and Leisa dig into what masking actually is and why assuming it's a conscious choice gets us into trouble. Masking can be entirely unconscious, and for many of our young people it's not just adjusting behaviour for context. It's a full-scale suppression of natural responses just to get through the day.

Millie introduces the Coke bottle analogy to explain what's happening when kids hold it together at school and explode at home or, just as concerning, hold it everywhere until burnout forces a complete shutdown. She also talks about the students who are even harder to spot: the perfectionists, the ones who never ask for help, the ones who seem to be doing brilliantly until they suddenly can't get out of bed.

The conversation moves into what schools can practically do differently and Millie makes a compelling case that the answer isn't more IEPs. It's Universal Design for Learning: building classrooms where every student has access to choice, where supports aren't singled out, and where the culture normalises different brains working differently. She describes her own classroom capacity check-in as one example of how that can look in practice.

For parents who've been told "she's fine here, it must be something at home" this episode will be both validating and useful.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Unmasking Education on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/unmasking.education
• Millie’s website: https://www.unmaskingeducation.com.au/
• Millie's masking course  Classcover Learn: https://www.classcoverlearn.com.au/course/masking-and-unmasking-in-the-school-setting
• CAST Universal Design for Learning framework: https://udlguidelines.cast.org/
• Novak Education Guide to Universal Design for Learning (UDL): https://www.novakeducation.com/guide-to-udl
• Ilume Learning: professional development in UDL: https://illumelearning.com.au/

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is experiencing School Can't can be a lonely and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world share similar experiences every day. Today, we are joined by the lovely Millie Carr, who you might know from her fabulous Instagram account called Unmasking Education. Millie is an educator, an Inclusive Education Outreach Coach, a late diagnosed AuDHDer who has lived experience in her family with School Can't. And Millie's mission is to help schools and families understand masking better and to find better methods in the classroom to support our high masking kids, their families, their schoolmates, and their teachers. We are going to get into what masking really is and why it happens, why our high masking kids are so easy to miss for teachers and sometimes parents as well, and what parents and teachers can do that actually makes a difference. I hope you enjoy our conversation Well, Millie Carr, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast today. It's delightful to have you with us

Millie Carr 1:16

So excited to be here. I know it's taken us a little while to get this recording kind of up and running, but I'm very excited to be actually doing it today. Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 1:25

Fantastic. Well, I think we're talking about a very important subject today, which is masking. It's something that comes up in a lot of conversations about our kids and school and, life in general But I don't think we go deep into it very often, so I'm excited to really dig into it today. Before we get started, though, I would love to just learn a little bit about you, Millie. Can you tell us a little bit about you and your life and what brings you to be doing the work that you're doing now?

Millie Carr 1:51

I feel like everything that I've done over the course of my life has kind of led to this point of where I'm at. I'm an educator. Have been straight out of high school, went straight to uni. Always wanted to be a teacher. That is like my dream kind of job, always has been. I love working with kids.

Leisa Reichelt 2:05

So does that mean that you enjoyed school when you went to school?

Millie Carr 2:08

I enjoy learning I did enjoy school to an extent but I just enjoy learning. So the learning part of it for me, like, I am a, like, a lifelong learner, and I always am looking for the next thing that I can learn, um and grab onto So yeah school school was I still did enjoy school and still enjoyed going to school and wanted to learn and wanted to be there. But some reflections now moving back you know show a bit of a different light with some of the elements, I guess, that I did do, 'cause I do have obviously lived experience now. So I am late diagnosed AuDHDer. Was diagnosed first with ADHD and then once you start taking medication with ADHD, I started to go, "Hold up, I feel like there's, like, some other things underlying there that I didn't quite realize were there," until I started taking some of my medication and and calming some of the ADHD things that are going on in my brain Uh so that was Yeah only diagnosed about three four years ago and I have been working through that myself. But also you know daughter was diagnosed uh when she was in grade one. She's currently in year 12 So she was diagnosed quite early for a girl at that time period. So it wasn't like I was unaware of masking of autism My son is also level three autistic. So you know I was aware of all these things but never ever fully looked inward and thought that it related to me, until I was in my 30s. So those kind of experiences with school, with teaching and my teaching experience and then also with my children led me to my own diagnosis, and then has now led me into a path of, you know inclusive education, talking about masking and talking about late diagnosed um children and adults. And And yeah, my whole purpose and my whole drive behind everything that I do is about making environments that are places where people feel safe and don't need to hide and don't need to, you know, cover up some of that stuff that I did I know as a child kinda moving forward. So yeah everything I do my master's now in inclusive education. I'm in a role in my career where I'm an inclusive outreach coach So an inclusion outreach coach I work in schools building inclusive practices. So everything that I'm doing kind of, yeah, it it really boils down to all of that lived experience. All of that stuff has kind of led me to why I do what I do. And the Unmasking Education page that I have, is trying to spread some of that awareness around as far and wide as I can as well.

Leisa Reichelt 4:36

Amazing. Well, I'm looking forward to digging into much more of that, including the inclusive education stuff as we get a little bit further along. You talked a little bit about your kids. How has their experience with school been?

Millie Carr 4:49

My daughter especially I mean she's the one that first led me to think about and dig deeper around masking. So I've been you know on this kinda journey for a long time, like I said, grade one is when she was diagnosed and the reason that she was diagnosed. And look we had to fight really hard for it because it started when she was in preschool. She'd go there all day and be completely, you know, present in a way that seemed fine to the educators. She would come home and I would see a completely different version, and that was only for, like, a five-hour period she was going to these three-year-old kinders. I did try and get the three-year-old kinder to fill out one of the assessment forms and it was just like a complete polar opposite to what I was filling out on my form. So what I was seeing at home and what they were seeing at kinder was completely different. And I was told by medical professionals at the time just to leave it, that it probably wasn't anything, that you know maybe what we were seeing was something about home and just to kinda keep going. And that continued through kinder, through prep, through grade one. All through her primary school years especially difference that I saw in her from home and school was completely different ends of the spectrum. We saw, you know, at school she was compliant, quiet, and did really really well academically. She was actually really quite bright and did very very well and they celebrated that a lot at school. And whenever I'd go and have a parent-teacher interview, I'd be told, "She's so great. We love having her in the class. We'd have a million of her in the classroom. Like she's fabulous. And then what I would see and it would be as soon as we got in the car it wasn't almost like we even had to wait till we got home. It was, we would get into the car, the sensory element of the seatbelt would annoy her and she would lose it, and I would usually be the receiving end of her emotions and buildup from the day. So her day would obviously be really stressful, and she was very, very good at controlling and holding it while she was at school. She does not like to look different or, or be different at all, so she wanted to fit in, and, and fit in with the school, the classmates. And then at home what I saw was complete opposite. We had shutdowns, meltdowns, some really explosive behaviour too, where things like, you know, door handles, holes in walls, chairs being thrown, and people completely not believing what I was saying. Even friends and and people that didn't see that they were kind of like "I can't imagine her doing that. I can't imagine that that's what you're seeing." And then I think there was probably some element of people thinking that I was exaggerating a little bit. But I was like at some point I wanted to like video it but I didn't wanna do that and share that with people. But I was kinda like, "I need you to believe me." And doctors to believe me that it was happening, and one psychologist in early primary school did. In her conversations with her and then with me of did Was aware of masking and did kind of believe and understand that that complete opposite shift was possible. She was in grade one at the time. She's now in year 12 and even now still, we're talking years later, there still is a really big barrier to the understanding of medical professionals, teaching staff, still around what masking is and how it presents for a lot of our students at school. So yeah that's kind of the experience I've had with her and that led me to obviously deep dive more about it myself and look really deep into why and what I could do to help support her. And I put some things in place at home. But at school, there were never really probably the supports that she needed to help stop that. And we are now in a place where she is doing Virtual Schools Victoria. So for year 11 and 12, she has not been attending school in person. The anxiety of going to school was very, very big. We got to year 10 and I just said to her, "Why don't we try doing something different? Try doing something at home, and take away that anxiety of going to the premises." Because it wasn't even just the school element in terms of the academics that were the problem, it was all the other hidden curriculum stuff that happens throughout the day that was causing her great anxiety before school, going to school. And then, she's a completely different child now she's doing school at home than what she was going to school. We have her coming out, speaking to her saying hello, playing with her younger siblings. Just she normally would come home from school and go straight into her room, close the door, and stay in there, and she needed that space.

Leisa Reichelt 9:13

That's so amazing, isn't it? Yeah, my son's been doing distance education for a term now. He just did his mid-year exams, which was like an unthinkable achievement not very long ago. I think a huge part of it is the fact that, you know, you can have your video off, You don't have to talk. You engage, you know, as and when and how you want to, and that's a completely accepted thing and yeah, that, the weight of that masking behaviour being stripped away, I think just makes an enormous difference. It's very sad that that is what's required in order for them to access education.

Millie Carr 9:48

In order to have the capacity to do the academics and and be able to do the exam like your son, you need to take away some of that other load, and that's, it's unfortunate that we can't do that while attending school.

Leisa Reichelt 10:03

And getting that social benefit, 'cause I think that's the thing that he really misses is that social benefit. But it's also, at the same time, it's the socialness that creates the... It's, it's complicated. So let's talk about masking. I think all of us have got kind of a, maybe a little bit of a working definition of what we think it is. How do you describe masking, Millie? How do you define it?

Millie Carr 10:23

For me, it's kind of, uh an unconscious or conscious and this is really important I think a clarification cause people assume that it's conscious, so people are making a choice to do it. It can be very much unconscious suppressing or, hiding particular emotions, behaviours, traits that you might naturally feel your body needs to do So it could be holding in things like stims. It could be um refraining from saying particular things, expressing emotions that you're feeling at the time. So it's usually suppressing and and kind of holding that in. Sometimes we unconsciously do that and sometimes we consciously are going, "We're making a choice." Potentially in this environment, we're not gonna feel as safe or comfortable, that I'm going to assess the situation and not be my my complete self at that time. And you kind of compensate. A lot of children that mask they compensate. for some of the things that they're trying to do to try and make it look like they are fitting in or are the same as everybody else. So things that are natural to them, they will suppress, hide, and then do something else to compensate to then make it look like they're fitting in. I still do this to this day where I will overcompensate for something You know I struggle in meetings off the fly and off the cuff sometimes if it's not a topic area that I'm really comfortable on. So I will spend time prior to that, preparing what I may or may not say so that when I come into the meeting I am able to contribute, and it looks like I've contributed in that moment. But I've put a lot of time prior to that doing that, and that takes a lot of effort to do. And a lot of our children that are at school and that are masking, they are putting a lot of effort into overcompensating, maybe checking other people, looking at what's going on, trying to follow, copy, and suppress and hide their natural instincts to fit in, in the environment that they're in.

Leisa Reichelt 12:14

Millie, something that people have said to me about it in the past is, "Well, that's just a natural human thing and everybody does that. Like, everybody is a slightly different person in different circumstances, and that's just, being a sociable human." When does it stop being just a normal thing that everybody does?

Millie Carr 12:34

I did think this was a normal thing people did, and it was something that I So I'll give you an example of something that potentially is an extreme level of what people say, "Oh, we just, e- everyone's a little bit different." If you're in a professional setting, yes, you're going to be different than you are at home in your personal setting. Definitely. I completely understand that. But so for year 12, for my own year 12, I, um I'm not great at writing essays on the fly. I can write an essay really really well, I think really really well but I require the time and the conditions to allow me to do that really, really well, which you do not get in a year 12 exam situation. You have a very small period, you have no idea what the question's going to be, and you have to just kind of make do with what that is. So I in order to prepare for that to make sure I could get something down in the time period that I had, I prepared six different essays for six different themes that might have come up in the exam, knowing that it was gonna be about one particular book. I did all the different types of themes it might possibly the question might be about. I wrote six different essays for each theme. And then I rewrote them three times each in the lead up to the exam so that I had them memorized because I knew that I wouldn't be able to write it in the way that I was able to write it when I had, again the time. So I wrote those things three times each prior to going into my year 12 English exam. And then when the English exam came up I was like Yeah it's about friendship. Great. I've got one that I've already prewritten. And I kind of from memory tried to and it wasn't obviously perfect, but I tried to write from memory the the essay that I had written at home. And if I hadn't have done that I would've got probably two paragraphs done. So that's something that I thought other people were doing in terms of preparing for exams and preparing for these kind of things I did not know until I was an adult that that is not what people were doing before they were doing English exams They were potentially looking over their notes having a little bit of a skim, looking at some quotes, you know, making sure they had a little bit of an idea. They were not completely writing out six different essays and rewriting them three different times to get in. So masking is it's an extreme compensation or extreme suppression of what you're innately feeling. So I did not feel comfortable to release any emotions at school. Like, there were no emotions that you would see really at school, and I'm a very emotional person. But holding that and keeping that together in that environment is, like, paramount for me. Whereas having a little bit of you know letting it out throughout the day is what you might see from other students. You may see someone upset cause there's a friendship issue outside and they'll come in and they'll talk about it with someone, and they'll be upset. Students that are masking, they're not going to ask for help and they're not going to do that because they don't wanna make a fuss or, or create that kind of different environment. So when people say that, I think, yeah, it's just kind of it's that next level of it. It's not something that you are just kind of, slightly changing your behaviour to be in a more professional setting. You are completely suppressing or putting coping strategies in place to actually change your behaviour that is not natural to how you actually are when you are, in a comfortable safe environment.

Leisa Reichelt 15:42

That makes a lot of sense. It was not that long ago that I realized that not everybody walks down the street and actually had conscious thought about whether, when, and how they should smile at somebody coming in the other direction.

Millie Carr 15:57

See, this is the thing, and this is what this is what makes it really hard if we don't talk about it cause you just you literally go "everyone's thinking but when... But they're not. They're not. Then you don't realize that. Until I started talking about it again as an adult and then reflecting on things that I did you know as a child to have an experience that felt like it was manageable. It's exhausting.

Leisa Reichelt 16:20

And then you pull that into the school environment where there's a level of intensity for that period of time too.

Millie Carr 16:26

Yeah the school environment, there's so much going on. You've got a classroom of 25 potentially plus students. All with different needs making different sounds. Even chewing someone that really struggles with hearing people chew as a sensory issue being in a classroom with 25 other people that chew in probably terrible ways in a 10-year-old, that's so hard. They're taking that in. They're absorbing that. They're suppressing that, going, "Oh, that's really annoying me, but I can't do anything 'cause I'm stuck here on the chair next to them, and that's kind of what my life is like." Or the fact that things change so frequently at school, you know? "Oh, we're doing this. Actually, no, we're not doing this now. We're gonna head out and play a game." Or like the routines change. You can't predict what other students are going to do. The cognitive load of work can be an element that kind of combines especially for those people that struggle and want to kind of mask that element of things too, um that they're capable of doing things, they don't want to ask for help. There are so many things throughout the day.

Leisa Reichelt 17:22

I think finding that social path between pleasing the teacher, what the teacher wants from you, but also, you know, being acceptable to your peers. Like, that is a really, tricky one to walk, isn't it?

Millie Carr 17:33

There's so many things coming at you, when you're holding all that stuff throughout the day. The school environment has so many different things, and if we're not thinking about those things, I mean, you can understand why that's building up. And I've talked about it before, that kind of Coke bottle. It's kind of something that I talk about a lot in my own page as well that Coke bottle effect. So we all have different Coke bottles and different sizes of capacity just to start off with. And some of our students that are masking, that are neurodivergent or with trauma impacted as well. They come in with, like already like half their bottle completely full, you know? And other kids are coming in with it completely empty. They also have a bigger bottle. So you've got different kids coming in with different things, and then as these things are happening, you're adding in more of that capacity. You're you're filling up the bottle. You know someone screams and has some kind of outburst that actually upsets you. Then you've got a student chewing. You've got a friendship issue outside that's upsetting you. All of a sudden, you've got a bottle that is completely full, but instead of letting it out at school- They have the lid screwed on super, super tight, and that stays there, and that does not budge for the entire day as they're going. And then you get to a place where you are feeling comfortable, and feeling good or safe and you you can tell what happens when you release that lid. We all know what happens if we shake a Coke bottle up and it's full and you release the lid. You're gonna have big explosions. I feel like explaining that to students and to parents makes sometimes people finally go, "Oh, I get what you're saying." Because they're like, "How can someone else over here cope with the day and this person not?" Well, we've all got varying bottles and different capacities, and we start with different things. And different things take more of our capacity than other things. So what for me might fill up some of my capacity may not do anything for you at all. And that's something that we need to really teach our children about as well. because We all come in with baggage and different things going on, and can manage and hold different things at different times. I may be able to hold something one day because I have had a really great sleep, but if I haven't had a really great sleep, my tolerance for that exact same thing may be completely different, which again is so hard for teachers to understand and parents sometimes as well.

Leisa Reichelt 19:49

We've talked about the masking where you have a build-up during the day and then you come home and it bursts out of the Coke bottle. But there are some kids that don't work like that, right? There are also some kids who come home and still keep it together. Can we talk about that a little bit?

Millie Carr 20:10

The one that you see kind of happening at the end of the school day that's very similar to my daughter. She did that pretty much every single day. And, you know it allowed me to know there was something going on. Whereas the ones that are even harder to spot are the ones that continuously do this. Masking while they're at home. They wake up the next day they go to school they hold it again. They come home they're holding a little bit, only letting out tiny little bits and pieces maybe at home often that leads to burnout. You have got students that, and it may not be something that maybe parents are deliberately doing, but they don't feel that they can completely release that at home. Because maybe at home, having a meltdown has been, in the past, they've been in trouble for that or been told that that's not appropriate behaviour. So again they try and then restrain that or they've seen a parent themselves hold in their emotions. Like, that can be a modeling thing that's, like not deliberately done but sometimes it can be inadvertently seen that oh it's still not safe to kind of, like completely do that I need to hold it a little bit longer. And what we find with those students is you've got months and even years of holding, holding, holding, and that's something that I probably more likely do. Holding holding and then you turn into that burnout and that complete shutdown and that's even more hard to get out of than the after-school restraint and letting it kind of out. 'Cause at least when you let that out, you've got a chance to kind of, I guess, reset and restart again. If you're holding it for months and years at a time, you get to a point where you just cannot. Your body is saying, it's a nervous system response, our masking in the first place. It's a nervous system response to, as you would fight and flight, that freeze and that fawn is very much a nervous system response that we're doing. And if you are continually doing that for such a long time, the stress that that puts on your nervous system and on your body, your body just says, "Nup, I can't do it." And then it is at a point where you can't even get out of bed, potentially. And that's where you've got some students that we can't get physically out of bed to get to school in the first place because they are that burnt out. Their nervous system is completely depleted and they've used up every single store the last few months, and they are now in a place where it requires so much work to actually build them back up, they build their nervous system back up to a point where they're not stressed and they can actually eat or get up out of bed or attend school for an hour, or like small tiny steps then need to happen to build yourself back up to that. Different personalities go to different types of how they do it. Things like, so for me, I I eat I binge eat a little bit This is a bit of a probably a a warning for anyone that has issues with food But I will hold it throughout the day and I still do it to this day, 'cause it's very unconscious to me that I fall into that masking pattern. Hold it, hold it, hold it, come home, and I can tell if I've had a really stressed day, 'cause I literally go to crackers, something chewy, something crunchy, and I will probably eat the entire packet of rice crackers in the space of five minutes. And I kind of finish it and go, "Hold up. What's going on here?" Obviously, something's happened throughout the day, but it isn't that big explosion, so people don't notice that as much. People don't go, "Oh, Millie's kind of eaten the whole packet of rice crackers." Like, that's that's my that's my little release I give it a little release of my bottle but then I put the lid back on again and go, "Okay, I'm gonna keep going." So that's kind of there's some little subtle things that you may see from a student that isn't having a giant, big reaction. You might even notice those small little things. Maybe they exercise a lot. Some people that over-exercise are doing this. They're trying to find We're all trying to find ways to regulate and kind of keep it so we can then keep going and keep moving. But it gets to a point where the burnout happens because body's like, "Well, I can't. Those little tiny things aren't doing enough for me. I actually need proper rest I actually need you to not be stressed. I actually need us to not continue to put on this mask throughout the day and actually be authentic to myself."

Leisa Reichelt 24:18

I've actually heard a bunch of lived experience stories where it's, like, a lot of teenage girls who, like, they just don't wanna cause trouble. They're like, "Mum and Dad have got enough on their hands already. I don't wanna be more trouble to them, so I'm gonna keep my shit together so I'm not upsetting Mum and Dad." And I don't... I don't know. It's hard to describe that as a lack of safety. It's just they're so compassionate and so empathetic to their circumstances

Millie Carr 24:42

And that's that perfectionism part of it too cause there's usually a high perfectionism, element to those students that mask and so the pressure may not be coming from their parents but they've put the pressure on themselves and that's very very common. And that still is a feeling of like they still w- who who wherever it's come from again it could come from just witnessing something inadvertently that's created that kind of feeling, that perfectionism, and it could be from outside, you know, the house or within the house. But either way, they don't feel that they can do that because again, it will be a burden on other people. I mean we grew up in a time I know, I I grew up in a time, where compliance was... everyone was compliant because that's what that's how we were brought up was children are seen and not heard.

Leisa Reichelt 25:24

Yeah. go back to the school environment I know that there are plenty of parents who have had difficulty getting teaching staff to get on board with helping to support, particularly our high-masking students, to acknowledge that the masking even actually exists and that it's a problem that needs to be addressed. What's been your experience, Millie, of how maybe traditionally teaching mental models have caused some issues in trying to, address this?

Millie Carr 26:02

it's a it's a really it's a really tricky problem which is why a lot of my work is trying to spread that awareness of it. Because firstly a lot of teachers will reject it when parents come in because they don't completely understand it. Or they've heard about it, but they kinda go, "Oh, if you can hold it during the day and actually do it then you can do it all the time. You know you're making a choice of how you're doing it. Or it can be that the parent is trying to find something wrong with their child. I've heard that many times from teachers. They'll be like, "Oh, the parent, you know, their other son's diagnosed. They just kind of want to find something wrong with this child because they're looking for attention or they're looking for something to be wrong so that they can get some more support or help. That's a very common thing that teachers again those that don't understand masking this is what you might hear. Or it could be that, "Well, they're really good here. I don't have any issues. Everything's fine. It doesn't really affect me at all. It must be something that the parents are doing at home that's creating it to happen only at home. If it's only happening at home, then something's happening at home that's actually creating the different behaviour that you're seeing at home in comparison to school, 'cause at school they're completely fine." So these are some things that, I've definitely heard many times. A lot of teachers don't go into the profession not wanting to help students. They want to teach and they really enjoy teaching students. That's why a lot of teachers are there. And most of the time, if teachers want to have that connection and that partnership with parents, I guess when they're not aware of masking and what it is it can be something that you can go, "Oh, well, that doesn't make any sense," 'cause it doesn't, it's not happening here. But that education is probably the first thing that I usually suggest to parents that I've talked to that are having trouble. When they're going to a teacher and they're going, "Look, I've explained that it's masking. I've explained that this is what I'm seeing at home." A lot of it's education and some teachers most teachers are open having the conversation with you if you explain and give them some kind of research or some data or something around it that kind of goes, okay, this is like something that's, that's a real kind of thing." Explain the Coke bottle effect. These kind of things help people go, "Oh, I get what you're saying. I understand now." And then potentially we can work together. And if you come at a teacher with that really curious mindset as to why why are they having the reaction like 'Oh no there's nothing really wrong there'. Is it because they don't know enough? Is it because they're not aware and they're not, they haven't got enough education around it? Or is it because they're so overloaded that they can't, someone that's fine I mean what's I'm not gonna deal with that person because there's other students in my class that are you know outward expressing and I need to control that situation So that's kind of the least of my worries. So it's really hard but I think most teachers are open if you come at them curious about this is what we're seeing, this is what I know about masking. Here are some really great people, research, data that I can point you towards to find a little bit more out about this. And even coming with some suggestions that are not going to be really big. If you ask them to do a giant IEP, they're going to potentially be like, "Ugh, I've already got seven." So that's a lot. So I guess what you come to them asking about is curiosity and wanting to work together.

Leisa Reichelt 29:30

I want to acknowledge how hard that can be when so many of these models that teachers tend to maybe jump to, put the parent at fault.

Millie Carr 29:42

Yep

Leisa Reichelt 29:44

and so it's hard then to go, you're telling me that I'm probably the problem and I have to turn around and come back to you with curiosity." Like, that's...

Millie Carr 29:53

It's real it is really it is really hard but the problem is because we're the ones that have the knowledge and the understanding and it's our child and we want the best for our child. And some teachers, I'm gonna be really honest with you, some teachers, you know if you're going to be able to get somewhere with them or not Um and if you're not. going to be able to get somewhere with them it might be a case of talking to someone different in the school if someone higher up in leadership. Some combinations and partnerships with teachers don't work I have to acknowledge that no matter what you do and how curious you are and what you present to them, mindset is fixed on whatever their version or truth they think is and it's really hard to have an open conversation with some teachers. I can definitely acknowledge that, and I know are some experiences that a lot of your listeners will have had that are completely negative and in that kind of vein. But then there are also some teachers that I know that they honestly really don't know, and it's not something, this is not something that we were taught at uni. As a teacher myself personally, our university degree, especially for those that have been in the profession for 15-ish years, what we were taught at uni, we had a, I had one subject that kind of briefly touched autism, and that's, it was not even, again, this expression or this presentation was not presented to us at all. The only reason I knew about it was my own lived experience and deep diving myself. So teachers don't know about something, and it makes it really hard to understand it. because if you completely have no idea what that is and what that looks like your initial thought is like, "Oh, this doesn't make any sense," because it doesn't fit their existing understanding of what autism looks like. Masking in general is such a foreign topic still for so many educators and look that's why I'm doing some of the work that I'm doing cause I'm wanting it to get out there especially in the education space I feel like I'm sometimes talking to the people that get it. I'm talking to parents that get it. I'm talking to people that have had lived experience and that are getting it, and they follow me and go, "Yes, we get it. I resonate." But I want to reach the teachers. I understand going into a parent-teacher interview where someone has said "Well there's nothing happening here It must be at home." That is extremely hard to stay curious in that situation, because you are being blamed for something that you know isn't actually happening. And say, look, it may be It may be that it's for me at home and you at school. But give me a little bit of time and just be a bit curious yourself, and please, all I'm asking you to do is to document for just a couple of days what's happening throughout the day. What have you noticed about her?" Ask them to just observe and document or ask a leadership member to come in and observe for a lesson or two and see what kind of happens throughout the day. And what you may find is that the student may be sitting there quietly compliant, never asking for help. So you might go, "Ooh, that's interesting. This entire lesson, this student didn't ask for help at all." Or they were, like literally ripping apart an entire piece of paper on their table and like caused know like this confetti of paper. Like little tiny that once you make the teacher aware of those little tiny things that, they might see they then can potentially be like, "Oh, okay, I didn't really think that that was anything. I just kind of, like, brushed that off." So hopefully look I like to believe that teachers care about their students enough that they want to actually work with parents and actually investigate with you and be like, "Okay, look, it may not be my school environment." And I think teachers take it offensively too. So the same way if a parent, if a teacher's saying, "Hey, you know, is it happening at home? So it's a home issue," you're offended by that as a parent. If you're coming in and saying, "Something's happening during the day," they're like, "But I I care about my students. All I'm doing is teaching And like it's not directly aimed at the teacher. Sometimes they can take it offensively and be like, "Oh, I'm trying my best. I've got seven kids on IEPs I'm trying my best I've got so much stuff I'm doing." And then they can shut down because they feel like they're being attacked also. So that curiosity of opening up the conversation and saying, "I'm not blaming you. I want to work together with you to see if there are some moments the day that we can build something else in, or are there some moments throughout the day that we're missing that are contributing to what's happening at home, so...

Leisa Reichelt 34:12

I think we all acknowledge that teachers have got a lot on their plate, and a lot of them are very burned out, and maybe have not been able to access the full range of professional education, that exists in the world today that might not have existed and been available to them when they were training. So let's 100% acknowledge that that is true. And also, that classrooms have got a mixture of kids who are very expressive about their needs and demands and others whose expression of that might be a lot more subtle. You touched then earlier on some of the clues to look for. What are the kinds of clues that teachers can be looking for to identify these really high-masking kids?

Millie Carr 34:58

There's some really key ones that I again the home-school disconnect is a really big one. So as a teacher if I, have a parent coming and telling me that something different is happening at home than what's happening at school, that's kind of one of the very first signs that there is something potentially going on that could be potentially masking. Um and then perfectionism, extreme perfectionism or you know having trouble getting things wrong. So making a mistake, crossing everything out, rubbing out things completely, redoing something again, the entire thing because, like, one part of it was not correct. Those overachievers can sometimes really go under the radar because they appear to be doing really well but sometimes that need to do really well in every single element of school can be definitely a sign that there is something else you might want to investigate. Um tummy tummy issues feeling sick sore tummies. That is what my daughter used to do is to go home and then she'd be completely fine as soon as we got home. So if you have a student that's often complaining about sore tummies heading to the sick bay a lot or wanting to just get up and to the toilet, like frequent toilet visits, and trying to kind of escape and then kind of come back and forth can be some really big signs. Never asking for help. A lot of students, again don't want to seem like they don't know something They will at all costs try and act like they are aware of what's going on and don't wanna ask for any extra help that'll alert people to the fact that there's something going on that's different. So they will copy look around try and like get a gist of what's going on that have maybe not been paying attention but they're trying to like keep up and never actually put their hand up and be like Hey I actually I need some help. Again they're really subtle. These are things that you kind of will be like Oh well a quiet student. Maybe they don't need help Do you know what I mean It's going around and knowing the students and being like yeah they actually need a bit of help but they're not actually asking for it Are they putting in so much effort all the time to hold everything together? The ones that are super perfectionists and are that are you know striving for like 120% that's not something that all students do. That is not something If you are seeing a student that is like putting in 120% at all times that's not something that all students do. And unfortunately, we praise that behaviour. We sometimes encourage it and make it happen more, 'cause we're going, "Oh my God, so-and-so is sitting down, and they have, like, done already a whole page". And that person goes, "Oh, wow, I better do more because I've already..." You know what I mean I wanna keep getting that praise and keep getting that um you know feedback that's really positive So we've gotta be careful about the feedback that, we give in amongst that. And sometimes withdrawing So sometimes you will see students that will actually just withdraw and put their head on the table. Like, that's very possible that they're sleepy or they're kind of, like, withdrawing a little bit. But again, I find with the masked students, they don't outwardly do that as much at school. That would be a case when you're getting really close to, like, burnout or shutdown. Um but a lot of them still kind of hide that part because yeah they again don't wanna look like they are different to anyone else, and the goal is to fit

Leisa Reichelt 38:02

Millie, you've mentioned a few times IEPs and, you know, the current approach, I think, that's common in schools is that you look at each child as an individual and their individual needs and, you know, what are we gonna do with that individual? And then you end up with teachers who have got classes with multiple kids who all have these individual needs that need to be, A, remembered, and B, sort of supported and all these kinds of things. I know your approach to how you resolve this situation in the classroom is not an IEP-based approach. Talk to me about how can teachers do all of this, deal with, the kiddos who are acting out and the ones that are high masking. Like, what, can actually be done?

Millie Carr 38:46

I have seen, in a class of 24 someone that had 12 IEPs they were writing. And these IEP documents are not small documents. They are really quite long really quite labor-intensive. And the problem is because there's so many of them and if they're all completely different you find that teacher will not even follow it. So it's it's there and you may have a document and it's there as a paper trail However it's not actually being implemented and fully embedded into what they're actually doing as a practice. And you also might find that there are three students that you've got separate IEPs for, but some of the same kind of things that would support that student would support the other two people on that IEP as well. So I think the the solution isn't let's just write more IEPs and keep differentiating and giving more and more adjustments. Because when we've got adjustment for this person, adjustment for this person, adjustment, adjustment, adjustment, that's a lot of load for a teacher to hold with planning and everything else that they're doing. And- that that makes it feel like I'm suggesting that we don't do individualized work which is not what I'm suggesting But there's a way that we can do it that can support the teacher but also support majority of the students. And you don't even need to know necessarily who's actually masking to be able to support them kind of underneath. And it's about building those environments from the get-go, where we're creating that safety and that belonging, and we're putting in supports in place that will support many different students. So things like student choice, things like, universal design for learning and looking at the classroom as a whole. So universal design for learning, for listeners that potentially haven't heard of it before, It's a framework that everyone can easily access I can kind of show you where to get to it so for you listeners can go find and have a look at it There are three different sections within there that talk about we offer students different ways of representing their tasks so presenting what they do. So potentially everyone's doing something about a reading task task but the way that they present that may be differently. Maybe I record something. Maybe someone else writes an essay. Someone else puts it into a letter someone else creates a bit of like a illustration around it. So the way we present our knowledge is, different. The way we give the knowledge to students can be different so we can provide different avenues for them to access. Maybe they watch it on a video. Maybe they work in a small group with me. Maybe they read a reading. Again, we're providing them different options, which is the student choice kind of element of it, and students can choose what works best for them. The way, they actually like do the actual task and regulate all of those things become embedded into the classroom when you create a universally designed classroom.

Leisa Reichelt 41:28

And it's not that because you're special you get the video. like everybody gets the choice. Yeah

Millie Carr 41:34

You get to make the choice. And for students that don't quite understand what they need and have that interception issues as well, I have a little capacity checkin at the start of each lesson. I do it with everyone. So there's little bottles that show where my capacity's whether it's like really really I've got plenty of space to do lots of learning or whether I'm like kind of at capacity nearly now. I get the students to close their eyes, give me like a number of where they're sitting, and that gives me an idea of where I can go to students and kind of push and where I can support more. So if there are some students that are sitting at a four and they're pretty much nearly at capacity I might go to them and say Okay for today there's three kind of levels of the task here that I've presented as options. Maybe you watch the video today because I think the video might be a little bit less demand for you today. And then maybe you can try the writing task tomorrow or something. So like we present different options, and I can lead students to what might be best for their capacity in that moment, and then also teach them to do that themselves. Teach them to go, "Okay, if I've got heaps of capacity today and I've had great sleep and I'm feeling like I might today tackle this task, 'cause I've got so much energy that I think this one I can challenge myself. I can take on something that's a little bit tricky. I can get in the learning pit. I'm gonna have the energy to do that." But if I'm sitting at full capacity at the first part of the day or even after we get back in from lunch, I'm gonna have to modify what I do. That doesn't mean students aren't learning. It means that students are given options. They're given access. They don't feel like they're singled out or different. don't want accommodations A lot of our masked students are sitting there going I don't want to be told that I have to wear the headphones 'cause I have issues with sensory sensitivities with the noise in the classroom. I want everyone had to have the option to if you need to access their headphones, they are here at the front. And those that need to access the headphones today are going to come and do that. And we're not singling out anybody, and even those that aren't diagnosed. A lot of our masked students, because of their masking, are not diagnosed, and they're undiagnosed sitting in our classrooms. Just because we don't have a label or a diagnosis doesn't mean they can't be supported. But if everyone's being supported and everyone has the option to choose those different things- then they can go up and use that not feel like they are ostracized, different, and don't fit in. Fitting in is that everyone gets what they need. Every brain is different. We all learn differently. I like to watch the videos all the time 'cause they make sense to me better. I need to read the transcript and and you know highlight notes. We teach that difference and we teach the different ways you can access your learning giving that choice, that autonomy completely changes the whole game. So I highly recommend teachers to look at universal design for learning. It's something that I personally, um you know completely changed my practice and the way I worked with teachers. You don't have to have the whole school on board to do this in your classroom either. So I know that can be tricky for some teachers as well. You don't have to have the whole school on board to, in your class implement different options for accessing and responding to tasks, and accessing supports that they need. But it works so great when you have a whole school on board, and the culture is just this. We get what we need. We access what we need and it provides the access points so that students can decide and learn for themselves what they need, how they need it. And its not strange to do that or to ask for that.

Leisa Reichelt 44:57

That little exercise that you talk about where, you know, you come into the classroom or, or you're moving between activities and, you know, everyone closes their eyes, puts their head down, and then, like, what, you just raise your hand with however many fingers of capacity that you've got. And for that to be done across the entire group, such a lovely way of getting all the kids to just check in with how they are individually feeling. And also just, like, normalize the idea of fluctuating capacity, that ev- everybody has different amounts of energy at different times and different days. I mean, some of us more so than others. But it, you know, it becomes just a much more normal thing. You were telling me before, Millie, and, like, another thing that you often hear about in accommodations is, you know, people are given these little cards. Like, I'll wave my card if I need to go out of classroom. And, like, the number of autistic kids who are just like, "Well, they gave me the card, but I would never use it," because how humiliating.

Millie Carr 45:49

Again, it's drawing attention to them and making it different. If you're going to do that I don't have a problem with having little help cards. Everyone needs them. Everybody needs them So why can't everybody. It doesn't take long to make them for everyone You, start of the year when you're laminating name cards for tables and stuff, if everyone has a little "I need help" or "come over here", and they can pop it at the front of their table so they're not holding it up, they're just, like, putting it in front of their desk. If everyone has that, and that's how everyone gets the teacher's attention to come over for help, again, it's not drawing attention cause then everyone has that. You gotta build it into the culture of the classroom. Build that difference in, how we regulate how we build those supports in place. And if you create that culture where everything and every brain is different and we accept that it just makes everything so much better.

Leisa Reichelt 46:37

So you make the differences normal rather than trying to support the differences almost.

Millie Carr 46:42

building the fact that every brain is different and we're going to be different. We all are not going to learn in one way, ever. And that's just what it's like in a workplace. Sometimes people go "Oh you know they're not gonna get these accommodations when they're out in the workplace". Well yeah they are. If I actually want to wear my headphones cause it's too loud in the office I can do that. If I would like to go and go to the toilet and have a break, I can do that. Most workplaces do allow those accommodations. We just don't see them as accommodations. So by retrofitting the accommodations we're hitting the students that are outwardly expressing And yes they've all got an IEP the ones that are outwardly expressing, but we're missing our students that are masking. So if we just change the environment, those supports are actually gonna support the masking students, the students that are neurotypical. Like, everyone is going to benefit from learning how to regulate where their capacity's at. And the capacity part is really interesting as well. Rather than thinking about just emotions thinking about where your capacity's at, because that can be different to our emotions as well, all linking. Different people's capacities can relate to different emotions for different people. Which again comes back to what I spoke about before. You know we all come in with different capacities We all have different This problem may not be a small problem for me but to you it may be. So this is all part of our teaching, and this is our job as teachers, to teach and create this environment at the very beginning. Once you set that up in term one, the rest of the year just becomes reinforcement of this, and just constant and modeling it as a teacher too I often model Look I'm at four today. So instead of walking around to you, I'm gonna actually sit here, and if you need me, put your card out I'll have a look and then I'll come over to you. But I'm not wandering as much today cause my capacity's low too." Or I think it's modeling that for the students sharing with them about different brains How I would love to see classrooms move towards, is building a really universally designed classroom where there's adjustments and choice built in, and students can choose what they need, when they need it.

Leisa Reichelt 48:46

It feels like such a more efficient and effective way to do things. Like, you know, fewer meetings and more benefits to more kids. Is this something that's starting to take off? Are we seeing more of this in classrooms? How, you know, presumably this is what we want parents to sort of motivate and try to, you know, raise awareness of as well perhaps

Millie Carr 49:11

It's getting a lot of traction So I know personally like I said I'm in Victoria so there's different states, and different states are doing different things. Um not all the same kind of thing. But in Victoria I know that universal design for learning is being talked about. There is a big course that's coming out in term three that certain parts of the department are accessing, and then in term four, it's open to all teachers in Victoria. And I know that across different states these things are kind of happening more so Uh so. it is definitely getting out there. You can do some professional learning already on universal design for learning through the the website's called CAST where the guidelines are but there's also Ilume Learning they do a lot of work and and professional development in this space and they do a lot of UDL work so teachers can access it through that way. So yeah this stuff it's definitely happening so it's not like it's completely foreign to the education departments. I think they are definitely coming on board, but like everything, it's very slow. But it's something, this is something that as a parent you could mention to a teacher. This is something that you could point them in direction to this podcast let them have a bit of a look and go "Oh, okay." And once they start finding and accessing it It will create less workload for them rather than having 12 plus IEPs with all these different accommodations, you know that they have to think about in the class. It actually just makes it a little easier for them, and I think teachers will be on board with having a little bit more of an easier, you know not having all of that paperwork and stuff to do. I have faith that it's getting there but it's not quite embedded at the moment but change is happening and I'm I keep positive because I want to be positive that we're moving in the right direction for our students.

Leisa Reichelt 50:56

We will put a bunch of links in the episode notes for people to be able to access and follow up and get more information. Millie, if you were gonna recommend one resource for people to get started understanding UDL, where to start?

Millie Carr 51:09

Um the CAST framework So it's called CAST the CAST framework is free. They have information on their website and it actually shows the framework of different options of how students can represent, access the learning. That's kind of like the very first point of call and everything else that we talk about relates to that framework.

Leisa Reichelt 51:26

Amazing. Millie, you put a lot of amazing content online as well, around understanding masking better. Where's the best place for us to see more of that?

Millie Carr 51:34

Instagram is kind of the place where I post most of my things. I am always happy for people to DM and talk to me as well, ask me questions I can support where I can There's also a masking course that I have on Classcover Learn Again I'll give you a link to that That's something that anyone can access. It's for teachers and education support staff. However other people can access it too. Very similar information to what I'm giving you now, but some extra teaching strategies at the end and different tips that really work But yeah that that course is available as well On my website there's resources too But I, share a lot of content free through Instagram.

Leisa Reichelt 52:09

Yeah. It is great content. I really, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Millie, for coming and sharing with us today. It can be, It's like the whole masking thing. You're just like, "Oh, you know, how, how do our masking kids ever get attention," in the context of the classroom? But I think, you know, there is a very obvious solution to this, isn't there? And it's so, so accessible

Millie Carr 52:29

it's the heart of everything I talk about, it's inclusive for everyone. This is going to a lot of these strategies and giving that choice and autonomy and teaching them this is going to be helpful for them when they leave school and for everyone in the classroom. So that's kind of, that's my big high horse, that one.

Leisa Reichelt 52:47

I love it. I love your high horse. Thank you so much, Millie. I really appreciate your time today.

Millie Carr 52:50

Of course, thank you so much for having me.

Leisa Reichelt 52:52

I think Millie has shared something so very important with us now, which is that when we build environments like classrooms that work for our kids with extra support needs, everybody in that system ends up benefiting, including our teachers. So let's hope that that knowledge about inclusive education design continues to spread across our schools and classrooms, and maybe let's see what we can all do to help encourage our schools to adopt it. I have put links to Millie's Instagram and her website, her masking course, and the CAST Universal Design for Learning framework into the episode notes if anyone wants to dig into this a little bit more. and if you found this episode helpful, please take a moment to subscribe or leave us a rating or a review. It really does help us get this podcast in front of more families who haven't yet found our supportive community. If you have some feedback, a guest suggestion, or maybe you would like to share your own School Can't lived experience with us, we would love to hear from you. Please email us at schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Please do not hesitate to reach out for some extra support. Thank you for listening. We will talk again soon. Take care.