#69 - Pete Wharmby on How Schools Can Help Our Autistic School Children Thrive

Pete Wharmby is a neurodiversity advocate, autistic adult, and former English teacher in the UK. He brings a perspective that's genuinely rare in this space: he's been on both sides of the classroom, as a student who masked his way through school while quietly drowning in anxiety, and as a teacher who,without quite knowing why,  instinctively ran his classroom in a way that felt calm, fair, and safe for the autistic students in it.

His new book, Different Minds, makes the case that schools don't fail autistic young people out of malice. They fail them because the system was designed long before autism was understood, and has been stubbornly slow to change since. 

In this conversation with Leisa, Pete works through what that looks like in practice: the monotropic brain that's just getting into the zone when the bell rings and forces a subject change; the sensory assault of that same bell; the collars and ties; the disconnected curriculum that gives neurodivergent brains nothing to hook onto; and the attendance obsession that pushes kids into burnout and then punishes them for being burned out.

Pete also discusses research showing that non-autistic people often have an immediate, unconscious negative response to autistic people,including teachers, and argues that awareness of this bias, not blame, is where change has to start.

His message to teachers is simple and delivered with characteristic patience: when an autistic child or their parent tells you something is difficult, just believe them. Don't make them prove it. That default of belief, he says, would change everything.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Different Minds by Pete Wharmby: https://www.amazon.com.au/Different-Minds-Autistic-School-Children/dp/1785046225/
• Pete’s website: https://petewharmby.com/
• Pete on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pete_wharmby_books/
• Pete on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Petewharmbyauthor/

Transcript

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Leisa Reichelt 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I am Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Our guest today is Pete Wharmby. Pete is a neurodiversity advocate and a former English teacher in the UK, so he brings some real frontline insight into how the mainstream school system is impacting our neurodivergent students. Pete has a new book coming out which is called Different Minds: How We Can Help Our Autistic Schoolchildren Thrive. And so we talked about the systemic challenges of school for neurodivergent students and what might help. I hope you enjoy our conversation Pete Wharmby, thank you so much for joining us for our podcast today. Really pleased to have you with us.

Pete Wharmby 1:00

Yeah, no problem. I'm really happy to be able to come along and chat with you

Leisa Reichelt 1:04

Well, I mean, we've wanted to talk to you on the podcast for a while, but I guess the thing that made me get organized enough to reach out and say, "Look, we should really talk," is this book that you have

Pete Wharmby 1:16

Yes. Yes

Leisa Reichelt 1:17

Tell us a little bit about what has brought you to write a book about school and kids with autism

Pete Wharmby 1:25

Good question. Indeed. Yeah, so the book's called Different Minds, and it's coming out later in the year. I must confess, I can't remember when it's due out in Australia. But yeah, I mean, I guess it all stems... back to being autistic myself, of course? That's a huge aspect of it, obviously. And memories of school. that's a big part of it. memories of school as being a very tricky place to inhabit. I underwent what I think is fairly standard for a lot of autistic late diagnosed adults, a period of real kind of forced reflection, where you have to sort of go back over your life and figure out, "Oh, right, that's why that happened, and that's why that was difficult," and so on and so on. And that experience happened after I was diagnosed, coming up to 10 years ago now, and a big part of that was coming to terms with my experience of being at school. But of course, I was also a teacher at the time. So, I had it coming from both angles. I had these memories of being a student and the difficulties there, but I also had memories of being a teacher and the difficulties I had as a teacher, but also all of the students that I'd taught who had the similar kind of difficulties. So, so many people all crowded into my head, you know, the... of kids struggling and having burnout, meltdowns, shutdowns, not being able to get on with things, sensory overwhelm. And for half of my career as a teacher, I didn't know what any of that was. You know, my understanding of autism was shamefully very, very minimal. it was essentially what I'd kind of gleaned from fiction, I suppose. You know, books like Curious Incident and things like that, because we didn't get any proper training on it as teachers in the UK. I don't know whether things are improved over there in Australia. But, so all of that combined with having a daughter who's also autistic and going through the school system and the sheer weight of people who was talking to me online, you know, on social media about their kids, about not knowing what to do for their kids. Kids are struggling at school. Then the media gets involved. The media generally is involved in the whole thing saying, you know, "Oh," you know, "crisis of kids not attending school," and making it sound like it's all the kids' fault or the parents' fault for being, feeble or weak or something and just letting their kids run riot, when actually no. Like, no. Just, just no. That's wrong. Like, you are literally lying to the public. All of that is kind of what led me down the path of writing specifically about education

Leisa Reichelt 3:51

Yeah. Can I take you back then to your school days? What,

Pete Wharmby 3:57

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 3:58

now through the lens of knowing that you're autistic, how do you think about your experiences as a school student?

Pete Wharmby 4:06

Well, I mean, first of all, I have got to accept and admit that I was very lucky. I wasn't bullied particularly, which is, from what I can tell, relatively rare for an autistic kid. I guess it helped that I was very tall from a very young age. I was quite a tall kid. Even though I'm not very physical, I'm quite imposing. But also I was, excellent at masking. I know that now. So I think I kind of got away with it. so I passed as neurotypical, which is kind of what you have to do if you don't wanna get beaten up every day. so in that regard, I am very, very lucky because I think a lot of autistic adults carry significant trauma from that time period of their lives. So I didn't have that, but what I did have was enormous stress, just constant endless stress and anxiety about pretty much every aspect of the school day. I'd be anxious at the beginning about even going to school. I'd be anxious about getting changed for PE, about a science experiment that was coming up. Not so much about tests and things that kids are meant to be nervous about, but more just nervous about any routine breaks or any times where I might be expected to do something I didn't feel comfortable with, and that's pretty much everything. So yeah, just a constant, constant anxiety that has not really left me through adulthood

Leisa Reichelt 5:22

Did you talk to your parents or any adults about that at the time? No.

Pete Wharmby 5:26

No. God, No. No, not in the '90s, you know? It's, I mean, my daughter would now, you know, with me because, you know, it sounds silly to say this about the '90s 'cause it feels like they were only yesterday, but they weren't. It was a different time. You know, there were still very entrenched views about mental health, and I don't even think I knew what anxiety was back then. Not... I couldn't name it, you know? I knew... I was very familiar with the feeling of being worried, as I called it. I was always worried, and now I recognize that's actually anxiety. You know, it's like a medical thing. But the idea of talking to my parents about it just... I don't think it would've come up. We talk about it now more, now that I'm much older and, they've read my books and they've really embraced the whole thing. My dad thinks he's probably autistic, and my mum's kind of making peace with what hell it must have been for her as a probably neurotypical person, living in a household with three autistic people. But not knowing, Just not knowing why we are the way we are and, bless her. she got through like a trooper and, fair play to her for that. But, things were tough when I was a kid. We didn't have very much money. There were issues with, you know, the recession in the '90s hit my family pretty hard, and the idea of me going to my parents and saying, "Hey, I'm anxious," just, it's laughable, you know? It just would never have happened, unfortunately.

Leisa Reichelt 6:41

isn't it? I have this kind of

Pete Wharmby 6:42

Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt 6:43

I've heard other people say it as well, that what we now call School Can't previously we would have called it truancy

Pete Wharmby 6:50

Yes, indeed. And naughtiness I grew up with, you know, comic books and things. Like in the UK we've got comics called The Beano and The Dandy, these very kind of traditional with naughty boy and naughty girl characters like Dennis the Menace and Minnie the Minx, and they were always playing truant. But the idea was they were doing that because they were naughty with a big capital N. They were just bad to the bone. Like they were like the Catholic concept of, you know, what is it? Original sin or something, you know? When actually hang on a minute, the reason kids were being, playing truant a lot of the time in the '40s, '50s, '60s was because they were overwhelmed just like we are now. They just didn't have the language for it, you know? And I, I don't think we've moved on from that set of assumptions. You know, the government over here, I wouldn't be surprised if they started accusing teenagers of, you know, scrumping apples or something, like it is the 1950s. You know, and kids are playing truant and they're off stealing apples from orchards and No. No, they're not doing that. They're staying at home in a massive ball of anxiety. Or they're roaming the streets 'cause their parents aren't home and they just have to go somewhere, and they are struggling really badly because they don't feel safe at school, and they might not feel safe at home. So, what are they meant to do?

Leisa Reichelt 8:02

Yeah

Pete Wharmby 8:02

it's a good point. Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 8:05

Despite all of this worry and, you know, challenging experience of going to school, as you said, you became a teacher

Pete Wharmby 8:13

Yeah, yeah

Leisa Reichelt 8:15

What was going on there?

Pete Wharmby 8:20

Yeah, good q- another good question. I've thought about this long and hard, and I don't think it's any coincidence that my dad's a... Well, my dad was a teacher before he retired. He became a teacher when I was in my mid-teen. Basically, my dad's answer to all the redundancy issues and the job market being dreadful in the early '90s was to go to university and get a degree, the first person in our family to do so, and then become a teacher. Looking back now, wow, what a move. That's incredible. But at the time it was quite tough 'cause, students don't earn a lot of money. But he became a teacher, and that's therefore kind of what I knew in my mid-teens. That's what my dad was. So when it came time for me to finally leave university, where I felt relatively safe, I guess. I kind of made a little nest for myself at university, but then you have to leave, you can't stay. I couldn't get funding for a PhD, which is kind of what I really wanted to do. I had to leave, and I did a few, admin jobs for a little while, but I very quickly ended up going into doing a teacher training course because I think it just felt incredibly familiar and safe, and just something that I could engage with that felt doable. Because, the admin jobs I was doing didn't feel doable. They were really scary. I was really stressed all the time. So the idea of going back to school, even though school had been stressful, it was like better the devil you know. Which I must confess, as a slogan, as a phrase, I swear autistic people came up with that. You know, it's such an autistic way of thinking. You know, better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Let's always stick here and safe. No, we're not going outside.

Leisa Reichelt 9:56

Who knows what might happen?

Pete Wharmby 9:57

Exactly, yes.

Leisa Reichelt 9:58

So then going back to school as a teacher

Pete Wharmby 10:01

Mm-hmm.

Leisa Reichelt 10:03

What was that experience like? I guess I'm interested in two parts of it, right? Like, what is it like in that teaching experience, and then also what did you observe amongst the students that you were looking after?

Pete Wharmby 10:18

Yeah. Teaching experience-wise I loved the aspect of it, which was basically talking about your special interest all day. I loved that. And if I had a day's timetable where I'd look at it in the morning and see that I was doing the stuff that really was my favorite stuff, like, you know, ghost stories or Victorian literature or something like that, then I would have a good day. That would be a good day because I'd be energized, I'd be lively, I'd be confident, and they, they all help when you're teaching. But if I was having a day where I was having to teach stuff that didn't really scratch that itch, like, I don't know, exam practice or, there's certain aspects of poetry that I've never been a huge fan of, then the opposite was true. I'd, I just, I, I wouldn't be able to get into gear with it, and I'd dread it, and I'd hate it. And I think that's why my first book was about special interest, 'cause that was my first sort of window into that concept of there being topics and focuses that are truly energizing for you as a person. And that, I think, is so true for many autistic and ADHD people. So I found that quite interesting and quite challenging at times. You know, if I woke up in the morning and knew I had a rough day coming up, that was tough. And it wasn't like a rough day in terms of, you know, like having loads on. It was just I have to teach stuff that, you know, yeah. And I, I found that really hard. In terms of everything else about teaching, I found the behavior management very easy. No, not... I was good at it. I didn't find it easy, but I was good at it. People knew me as good at it. I was viewed as one of those teachers who, for whom the room was always very calm, very quiet. People would come into my classroom, and they'd remark on just how chilled out it felt. Not chilled out in terms of everyone's running around doing whatever they want, 'cause that isn't, in my idea, chilled out at all. That's chaos, and I can't deal with that. I like to think everyone just felt calm. Because of course, as I know now, I had to do that for myself. I had to make the room calm for my own sensory needs. And therefore, that drove me to really have these standards of no, no, no, you know, we've all got to live in this room together for an hour. We've got to be chilled out. We've got to be quiet with each other. There's gonna be no shouting out. We're gonna be friendly. We're gonna be nice to each other. We're gonna share some jokes, and it's gonna be fun, but it's gonna be calm. And that was my classroom throughout. At the beginning of the school year, as soon as I'd nailed how to do that with a particular class, that's how it would then be for the rest of the year. And I was known for this, and people would say, "Well, you know, how are you doing that?" I, I don't know. Like sheer force of will or something. It has to be like this, otherwise I can't teach. So I do whatever I can to make that happen. And looking back even now, I think I did it by, I was very keen on being fair. As somebody who is highly attuned to fairness myself and things being reasonable, it was really important to me that I was a fair person as a teacher, that I gave kids the benefit of the doubt, that I didn't jump to conclusions. All the stuff that I've ended up writing about in the book, actually. I think accidentally I was neuroaffirming without knowing it, because I just wanted everyone in the room to feel heard and safe, and like they belonged. You know, if there were any kids in there who were a little bit eccentric or a bit, different in some way, I would just, try to get them involved, But not in a, "Hey, you know, dance for us," kind of way, but in a, "So what do you think?" or, "Ooh, that's a nice point. wonder what somebody else in the room might think about that?" I think that was all so important to me, and I remember writing in the book about a time where I wasn't fair, and a kid, an autistic student, called me up on it, as they do, 'cause, it's, that's, that's a thing. They were angry with me because I hadn't been fair, and I had to back down. I was like, "Actually, do you know what? Yeah, fair enough. You're right, I have not been fair here." And it's moments like that, I think, where autistic teachers can shine. Being open and vulnerable and fair, fair-minded, above all else. So yes, talking a lot.

Leisa Reichelt 14:37

That's why you're here, Pete. That's

Pete Wharmby 14:38

Yeah, I suppose. Well, the trouble is, you know, when you're autistic, you grow up being told to shush. You know, "Stop, stop going on about it." so I always kind of feel this sort of internalized ableist thing of, you know, "Stop talking now, for goodness sake."

Leisa Reichelt 14:51

I think this sort of leads into what I imagine is kind of another part of the reason why the book needs to be written and read, which is that there are really systemic issues in the

Pete Wharmby 15:05

Oh yeah

Leisa Reichelt 15:05

that the education system is designed. You know, you talk specifically about the UK, but I don't think that that is unique in the world

Pete Wharmby 15:13

Oh no not at all. Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 15:16

Talk to me about that. What are those things that are just designed into how education is done these days that

Pete Wharmby 15:23

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 15:24

autistic kids so much trouble?

Pete Wharmby 15:27

Yeah, I mean, this is very much what the book is absolutely about. The one thing I didn't want it to be about was, "Here's what you can do to push your kids into school." No, 'cause I don't wanna traumatize them. Here's actually what we need to do to get schools to change, because yeah, they are not designed for autistic brains in the slightest, and I go into a lot of detail about why this is. Much of what schools are in this country, and I think elsewhere, is actually incredibly conservative. And I mean that with a small c, not a political capital C, if you know what I mean. Like over here, we've got the Conservative Party. It's not to do with that. It's to do with very traditional, very slow to change, very keen to keep the status quo. That's how schools seem to be to me throughout being a teacher and a student. And this I think is one of the problems that we've got to fight. So for example, the idea that the school day should be split up into hour-long lessons, especially at secondary school, or high school if you're in the US, is actually runs completely contrary to what we know autistic brains need. We know that autistic brains and ADHD brains are what we call monotropic. We like to spend more time on a topic to go really in depth with it, probably more than an hour, to be honest. So what you end up with on any given school day for secondary school students is autistic and ADHD kids who just as they're really getting into the zone with a subject or a task, you know, writing a story, writing an essay, doing some research, are suddenly told, "Bang, now you've got to go and do maths. Now you've got to go and do geography." And it's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."

Leisa Reichelt 17:00

and change teachers and

Pete Wharmby 17:02

change room. Yep, yep. All the, like the things that if you were designing a school for autistic kids, and you knew what you were doing, you wouldn't even dream of doing because it's so... It would be like having a nursery school and expecting the kids to be able to do algebra, you know, or something like that, or expecting the kids not to need a nap, or expecting the kids not to need a snack halfway through the morning, you know, because they're little toddlers, and they need that kind of thing. I'm not saying that autistic kids are like, you know, babies, but we, we have our needs. We have ways that our brains work and ways that our bodies work, and they are not met by schools. in a very gentle defense of schools, I would say I'm not sure it was purposeful. I think it is accidental. I think, the way schools have been designed was for the majority, and for most of the history of school development, they didn't know autism was a thing. So I can extend my patience to them a little bit. But come on, it's 2026 now. We've known about autism for over 100 years. We've known better detail about autism for at least twenty years now. We have to start making changes. Monotropic brains need more space to chill. I don't know what it's like in Australia, but we still have school bells here like a shrill sudden noise. That's an autistic person's worst nightmare and it's everywhere. Ties done up and collars expected to be closed. These are basic, fundamental things that we know a large minority of the population of the school can't deal with. And yet we stubbornly keep doing it.

Leisa Reichelt 18:33

What about curriculum design? I've seen you talk a little bit about that transition between primary school and secondary school. And one of

Pete Wharmby 18:39

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 18:39

that I really noticed when my kids went into secondary school is that all of a sudden they have a ton of subjects,

Pete Wharmby 18:46

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 18:47

maybe half of which they care about at all. And so not only are they going from class to class to class to class, but on any given day, probably two-thirds of the things that they have to do

Pete Wharmby 18:59

They're not interested.

Leisa Reichelt 19:01

or it might not be being taught in a way that makes it

Pete Wharmby 19:04

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 19:05

if it had the possibility of being interesting to them at all. But there is this kind of sense that like it's absolutely necessary that everybody gets this broad spread of things that

Pete Wharmby 19:14

Mm-hmm.

Leisa Reichelt 19:15

in

Pete Wharmby 19:16

It's a difficult one 'cause, I am a big fan in you know, I like the idea of people knowing stuff, I think it's good to know stuff, but, at what cost is the big question I'm always asking myself. Another thing that we know about, especially autistic and ADHD brains, within the neurodivergent rainbow, is that we are very heavily interest-driven, especially ADHD. Like, if there isn't that hook to get us clicked onto the thing, then it's just not gonna happen, and I remember that from school. I mean, I was well-behaved enough, I masked enough to just kind of do it anyway because I didn't wanna get into trouble. I was so petrified of getting into trouble. But I, I didn't benefit from it at all. I hated it. But when those lessons came along where there was a hook where I could click onto it, it was like, "Oh, wow," you know, "th- now this is the good stuff." And there isn't enough consideration of that. But I think the thing is in the UK, I think primary school education is really interesting because often it's got this sort of term-long topic that sort of drives everything along. So like they'll be doing the Anglo-Saxons or something, you know, for the whole term. And everything they do, English, writing, you know, like writing stories or reading comprehension, even maths, bit of technology and art, it will all be to do with the Anglo-Saxons. It will all come under this umbrella. And what you then find is that if the kid can find something that's interesting about the Anglo-Saxons, which they might be able to do if the teacher's good, then everything then becomes easier because it's all connected to this thing that they're finding at least kind of interesting. You go to secondary school, and that overarching narrative is gone. You've just got all these very distant, disconnected... It's like before the Marvel films started that whole thing of all the films connecting together, which we all seem to love so much, you know, all these films were disconnected and separate and, you know, just, off on their own. I think we need more MCU-style education where everything clicks, you know. And it's like we're doing this in geography and in geography we're doing Africa, and therefore in history we're doing the history of African empires and things, more than just Egypt. You know, what about Mali and all those interesting places? And in English, we're studying pre-colonial, post-colonial literature. And in maths we're... I mean, you can make maths be part of anything. You just need to change the question wording. It's dead easy, you know? And that way, you know, that whole term, the whole school potentially be following this, this thing, this, this interesting topic. And you could be sitting there thinking, "Well, what if they don't like Africa?" And I was like, "Well, I mean, that's a big, big statement." There'll be something within it that they will click with. They'll click with, I don't know, um, something historical to do with it Or they'll click with the animal life, or they'll click with the social stories of what happened after the Second World War. You know, kids'll click with something. At least they're given an opportunity for things to click, you know, rather than nothing. Just, yeah

Leisa Reichelt 22:16

I think the coherency of a topic-based approach to study as well

Pete Wharmby 22:22

Yeah. Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 22:23

to what you're learning

Pete Wharmby 22:25

It does. And a familiarity, which is something that kids often really require. You know, autistic kids thrive when there is predictability and familiarity. And if all the subjects for a period of time are all at least partially linked to a central core, that automatically brings familiarity. The kid will be going into school that day knowing, "Oh, well, you know, we're gonna talk about these things, and they're gonna be connected in this way, and, you know, they're all gonna have this link." There isn't much research into any of this as to whether it would actually work, so, you know, it is all very speculative. But knowing autistic brains as I do, it's just, like, there, there is a possible way A really big thing that I'm very interested in at the moment is actually more systemic for society in general, and education is just an area where it's kind of brought into focus. And that is the way that anything different, anything that veers from the norm is viewed with great suspicion. And that, I think, becomes tremendously difficult in education. My big problem with education as it stands, at least in this country, and I suspect over there as well, and I think in America too, is that there is still this belief that education is a sort of favor that we've been gifted. We're the plebs, we're the people, and we have all these kids, and it's like, "Hey, look, we're gonna give you free education, and you've gotta be grateful for it. And don't you dare ask for any kind of accommodations because are you not aware of how generous we're being with this?" It's a very Victorian mindset, you know? And I genuinely believe that that is still something that's very heavily embedded within the system. 'Cause you end up with parents going to school saying, "Hey, look, you know, we need these accommodations." And they look at you as if to say, "How dare you?" "Who are you to say what your child needs? We're the experts. We're the school. We know what children need. You can't possibly know." And it's, that, that is endemic. That is absolutely... it's written through education like through a stick of rock, you know, just all the way through. And, a- and I

Leisa Reichelt 24:29

There, you know,

Pete Wharmby 24:29

Oh, obvious. Of course, of course, yes.

Leisa Reichelt 24:32

exceptions to this rule, but yeah

Pete Wharmby 24:35

But that's not enough. That's the trouble. What that leads to is situations where some kids are lucky. Some kids are lucky and get the good ones who keep on top of things, who know about this stuff, who are willing to listen, willing to learn, and willing to fight the system. But if you're not lucky enough to have one of those, then, it becomes a postcode lottery, doesn't it? So yeah, I mean, absolutely. I would never want to tar all teachers with the same brush, but, I've been in that world. I know how stubborn and resistant some professionals can be. And it's not just education, it's healthcare too, it's government. Anywhere where you have professionals who believe themselves to be expert in the thing they're doing, you get this same stubbornness. I think that that's a really big problem, and autistic kids get the brunt of this because we are, as autistic people, inherently different. We will act differently. We will speak differently. We will challenge. Whether we want to or not, we will challenge the expectations that the teachers have of what a child should do and how a child should be, as will the autistic parents potentially as well. And therefore, we get this constant churn of annoyance and impatience where the autistic children are not matching expectations. They're talking too much or talking too little. They are anxious and possibly depressed, and that's not okay somehow, for some reason. They are struggling with homework. They're struggling with punctuality. They're struggling with organization in ways that teachers don't expect, and that causes problems. I think, the big systemic change has to be a humbling within the system of, "Okay, you know, we are... We still believe ourselves to be one of the best places for your children, but we're willing to listen. We're willing to learn. We can see that things are bad, and we can see that things aren't working, and we're not going to blame you. We're going to ask, 'Okay, so what can be done?'" That's what I'd want to see, and you do see it. You see individual schools doing that. You see, individual teachers doing it all the time. What you don't see is the whole system doing it.

Leisa Reichelt 26:42

Well, then let's talk about that a little bit more as well, right? Because you touched on this before, I think, you know, in terms of the governmental aspect to this as well, right? Which

Pete Wharmby 26:50

Yes. Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 26:52

are kind of jammed in the middle between, the kids and their parents, and then

Pete Wharmby 26:56

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 26:57

the requirements that are pushed down onto them by education departments and, ministers and politics, all this sort of thing as well, right? So that drive towards you being able to measure and, you know, having standards, all these kinds of things, I think also probably contribute quite poorly to the system design

Pete Wharmby 27:19

Well, absolutely they do. they help to solidify that kind of elitist attitude that sadly does kind of exist. they support that, you know, they help that to grow or help to maintain it. I think there was a period in the '90s and the 2000s in this country where it was starting to disappear actually, where schools were starting to become a bit more open to different kind of views and different ways of doing things. But then things retreated back again in the 2010s. Yeah, absolutely the government, you know, they call all the shots. We can't do this grassroots. This has to be a top-down thing because otherwise schools are gonna be... you know, in this country, schools are absolutely beholden to the Department for Education. They're beholden to OFSTED who have their requirements. And a really good example of this in the UK at least, is this obsession with attendance, which I think comes from a sort of good place, I guess. You know, ostensibly it comes from a desire to make sure that kids aren't missing out on their education, which I guess kind of makes sense. But it's so punitive and it's so inflexible that there is just no way to engage with it properly. So, you know, I was showing my daughter around her new secondary school, and she was staring at this board in the reception and I went over to said, "Are you okay? what are you looking at?" And she was looking at... A- and it was a board explaining the consequences for missing school and the percentages required. And she just looked at me and, you know, she doesn't have masses of time off, but she does have a bit 'cause she gets poorly or she's overwhelmed and, you know, has headaches or nausea and things like that. And she was petrified 'cause she was like, "Oh my God, you know, Dad, what if I, what if I'm off too much? What are they gonna do?" And it's like, because Schools not being fit for neurodivergent purpose pushes neurodivergent kids into meltdown, pushes them into burnout. But then this attendance obsession means that they're not then willing to let the kids recover. So, you know, it's like, right, we're gonna push you into burnout. We're not gonna mean to, but we are. We're gonna push you into burnout, and then when you are burned out, sorry, you've gotta still come in, and we're gonna be pushing you ever deeper into that hole. And there's no recognition of what's going on there, of the irony of it, of the cruelty of it in some ways, just the silliness of it for want of a better word. It's just silly. is not gonna work, and it's really obvious. Like, why can't you see this? And that's all government-led. The schools are acting because of the massive pressure put on them for numbers to be a certain number. That's all it boils down to. It's gotta be ninety-seven percent attendance. If it's not, you as a school are in trouble. And it's like that thing of, the dad gets told off by the boss and comes home and shouts at his wife, and then the wife shouts at the kid, and then the kid shouts at the cat. The aggression and the annoyance and the anger goes down the scale, and we all end up experiencing it in our own homes because our kids are stressed out, and we're stressed out because of the pressures put on us by the schools, because of the pressures put on the schools by the government. So yeah

Leisa Reichelt 30:28

But this is not a secret, right? I mean, I see in the UK probably more than anywhere now well-known people in the media who are having

Pete Wharmby 30:39

Mm-hmm.

Leisa Reichelt 30:40

with their kids,

Pete Wharmby 30:41

yeah, I'm talking about it.

Leisa Reichelt 30:42

in the media,

Pete Wharmby 30:44

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 30:45

of people coming in behind them and going, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's exactly what I'm experiencing as well." Are you having any sense that that is getting through to the wider population and to the government? It seems, if anything, as though the government is still pushing harder in the opposite direction

Pete Wharmby 31:03

I think what we're seeing is, you're right, we're seeing this kind of, And it is a natural thing. As more and more people who already have a following, you know, actual celebrities, as more and more of them get diagnosed, which they will be, and as more and more of their kids get diagnosed, as they will be, they're gonna be fighting the good fight, many of them. You know, there's people like Anna Maxwell Martin and, Christine McGuinness and people like that in this country doing fantastic work in that sphere. You know, who are using their, their existing platform to really share this stuff. But at the same time, what you're seeing is an increased viciousness in the tabloid media. I mean, articles questioning that autism's even a real thing. And there's a Channel 4 documentary coming out questioning whether ADHD is real or just a fad. And it's like this documentary has no basis in science. There is no way that this documentary needs to exist. It's not based on anything real. It's just a kickback against people trying to get things to change. It's that natural conservative again kick back towards the status quo. So I think it's a question of who's gonna win. Is it gonna be the increased grassroots voice of people as they gradually, gradually speak out more and more, or is it gonna be the manufactured kickback from the media? And I think we know the answer. It will be the grassroots. It always is, eventually. You know, when everything that's ever happened in human history shows that eventually progress wins. It's just how long it will take is the

Leisa Reichelt 32:27

suffering is happening

Pete Wharmby 32:28

And how much suffering.

Leisa Reichelt 32:30

Why, for

Pete Wharmby 32:30

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 32:31

who are having such a terrible time and the families who are struggling so much to support

Pete Wharmby 32:35

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 32:35

Like, it's really, really difficult

Pete Wharmby 32:38

It's awful. Yeah. Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 32:39

So Pete, we've sat around whingeing and complaining for a little while now. Let's, let's, kick into the proactive part

Pete Wharmby 32:46

Yes.

Leisa Reichelt 32:47

the conversation. I know that we don't wanna put all of the work back onto individuals, that we know

Pete Wharmby 32:53

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 32:54

systemic problem, but, you know, being stuck in the system that we're in, Who needs to do what? What can we do now to try to make this better?

Pete Wharmby 33:05

I think that the best wins are gonna come about from good quality communication between parents and individual schools, and probably even just individual teachers. I think the best we can do as the system stays as it is, is just try to make things the best we can, working with those individual teachers who are willing to do what they can and who do understand. And you are getting a whole new generation of teachers going in now who know this stuff and who may well be diagnosed themselves or have family... because things are changing. So it's about opening those communication channels up as best as we can and trying to keep them open even when things go badly, which unfortunately, sometimes they will. A bit like we've done today, like you've done with me. I've gone into full on parent angry mode and you have diplomatically kept me, you know, let's not forget and that is exactly what we need. we need there to be like, arbitrators or, people who can be in these meetings and just help keep things smooth. 'Cause often what you end up with is an us versus them dynamic, where you've got like the SENCo or the head teacher and the parent, and the communication relationship just falls apart so quickly. You need like a friendly face who can straddle the gap, you know, and keep you both in mind and try and help translate. Because you've got that double empathy problem, haven't you? Where non-autistic people just simply don't understand and can't understand, and they need some way to They need gentle help to understand that. And I think, if we can find diplomats within our schools services who are willing to do that job of translation, it could be a SENCo, it could just be your kid's, teacher, their favorite teacher, or just somebody kind. Somebody who's got the kid's best aim in mind. Keep that communication open, and then focus on doing what the school can do with its limited, potentially quite limited, funds and abilities. So for example, it's a really valuable thing that any school can do once they're on board, is to really get to grips with the sensory needs of the child. It really isn't difficult really to figure out what a child's sensory needs are, and it can be quite a profitable inquiry because often parents and the kid themselves, they might not really even know. I mean, I didn't know what my sensory needs were until I really sat down with it and figured it out. So if you can get teachers to sit with your kid, with you there too, and just, talk about it, figure out what their triggers are. What are the things that really bother them? What are things that actually aren't too bad for them really? What sort of sensory input do they really enjoy and might keep them regulated, and is there any way we can allow for that? Like I carry around a little bottle of lavender-scented oil around with me just 'cause, every now and again take a big sniff, and it works wonders. It's like kind of little quick wins. They're often just lost because we're not having those fruitful conversations because we're all so angry.

Leisa Reichelt 35:55

I think

Pete Wharmby 35:55

often by the time

Leisa Reichelt 35:56

the kids get involved in these conversations too, they are so overwhelmed

Pete Wharmby 36:00

Yeah, they, they,

Leisa Reichelt 36:01

they

Pete Wharmby 36:01

what can they...

Leisa Reichelt 36:02

Like, as you were talking about the lavender, I was thinking like, you know, like, who would even think of that unless they'd

Pete Wharmby 36:07

I know,

Leisa Reichelt 36:08

to

Pete Wharmby 36:08

know.

Leisa Reichelt 36:08

it? And, you know,

Pete Wharmby 36:10

yes

Leisa Reichelt 36:10

a lived experience story a while back from somebody whose kid was regulated by eating frozen peas and frozen corn.

Pete Wharmby 36:17

I like that

Leisa Reichelt 36:18

right. So that they, if they got, if it all got a bit much, they'd go to the school office and, and they'd give them a little bowl of frozen peas and frozen corn. They'd sit

Pete Wharmby 36:25

I mean, yeah, that's

Leisa Reichelt 36:26

So like all of these things, like how would you ever know that unless at

Pete Wharmby 36:29

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 36:30

you know,

Pete Wharmby 36:30

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 36:31

the opportunity to kind of explore. I think this idea of like sitting down and going, "Well, what do you need?" I just freeze and go, "Oh,

Pete Wharmby 36:37

Yeah, I don't know. I've got no,

Leisa Reichelt 36:39

know."

Pete Wharmby 36:39

It needs to be an actual conversation rather than a, you know, let's fill in this checklist. You know, you actually have to sit down and... I mean, you know, a good way to do it is to go round the school with the kid, you know, and go into different spaces. How do you feel about this pl- you know, do you like this room? You know, how do you feel about this one? Or just to observe them. You know, where do they tend to go? You can probably learn a lot from that. If you've got an autistic kid in a school who tends to disappear and go and hide under the stairs every day, you can learn an awful lot from that. Clearly there is something about that space that is desirable. Well, let's figure out what that is then. And what is it about the playground or the canteen that is undesirable? And just opening things up like that. I also think that, an awful lot can be done with special interests or focused interests or however you want to describe them. I think it's really important that teaching staff take more of an interest in that wherever and however they're able to. And of course, you won't always be able to. I mean, that was actually one of the experiences I wanted to talk about earlier that I had as a teacher with my autistic students. When they come to me, I was always happy to hear it. I often didn't know what they were talking about. I hadn't necessarily played the video game or I had... I knew, I knew nothing about their interest at all, but I would listen because I kind of found it interesting. it was nice, and they were opening up, and they were getting so excited, and it was so passionate, and that just made my day. The more teachers that are willing to take that role up of just being that safe person that you can offload to. If you wanna tell me about your latest video game, just do it. I can set aside a little bit of time. Not too much. I can only give you ten minutes realistically. Hopefully that's okay. It's so powerful in a way that I don't think neurotypical people realize, just how massive it is to have an adult who's willing to hear. Because so often as a kid, you're told to shush. You know, "Stop banging on about that. Can't you be interested in something else? Oh, not that again." If you can be somebody who doesn't do that, that's huge. That really is massive

Leisa Reichelt 38:43

It seems very equalizing as well too,

Pete Wharmby 38:46

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 38:46

dynamic a little bit and, mm

Pete Wharmby 38:49

Yes. Yes. And validating them too, because, I mean, I don't know about you or people listening, but a lot of my special interests were directly or indirectly invalidated when I was a kid. You know, adults saying, "Oh, that's just stupid. Why are you interested in that?" A really large scale version of that happens as autistic kids grow up, and they learn that there are things that they really love, they're no longer allowed to because they're for kids, and they're now like late teenagers. So you got like autistic kids who love Thomas the Tank Engine. I mean, I still love Thomas Tank Engine now as much as I ever did. It never went away. I just had to hide it, you know, 'cause it's not okay for some reason. You know, so if somebody can like validate it and be like, "Actually, you know what? It's fine,"

Leisa Reichelt 39:32

Pete, what else in your book would you like people to know about?

Pete Wharmby 39:36

There's actually a bit of fiction in there. There's a, um, there's a fictional account of a fictional autistic student going through their day. So every chapter and some subsections open with this kid and his experiences. I designed him as a boy because, he's kind of roughly based on me. And I wanted to be true to what I can communicate from lived experience. And his story... I don't know. I'm very interested in how people see whether that lifts what the rest of the book is saying. You know, having this deep insight into a person's psyche and what they're going through. You know, his day starts with a meltdown, and then it doesn't really improve very much from there, until the very end, which I don't wanna talk about 'cause I don't wanna spoil anything. But, you know, there is hope at the end. But another thing, a more practical thing that is a really big core feature of the book is looking at this unconscious prejudice that I kind of alluded to earlier. I read some research, I've read a lot of it recently, about how autistic people trigger very negative immediate responses in non-autistic people. Basically, they don't like us pretty much from the very moment they meet us, often. You know, and it's, it- it's not like an active conscious thing. It's just like a subconscious prejudice that they can't really help. But I mean, how important is that? That is a thing. that is one of the things that actually has been researched, and there's loads of evidence. So this is happening, and teachers aren't gonna be immune to it 'cause, I mean, who is? You know, we're all vulnerable to these prejudices. So surely this is something we need to get a handle on. Like, if, if there is any chance at all that neurotypical teachers are reacting negatively to our autistic children, then we need to look into that. We need some self-reflection, and we need some training. We need it to be known about. we need them to know that that might be happening so they can do something about it. And, And that forms a really central part of the middle section of the book, where I talk about relationships between autistic students and their teachers and also their peers, their neurotypical, potentially, peers who might just as much have these negative responses to the way they talk, the way they act, their stimming, their mannerisms, who knows what. And I think that is something that as a society we need to open up to and realize, "Okay, this is happening. How can we fix this? How can we move past this?" yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 42:01

I would imagine that things like understanding more about where some of that behavior is coming from

Pete Wharmby 42:09

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 42:09

would help make it less likely to be misinterpreted. Is that kinda what we're aiming for?

Pete Wharmby 42:15

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause it is all fed by fear of the unknown. You know, it's fed by an intolerance of difference that human beings do regrettably seem to be kind of hardwired for, don't we? You know, it's just one of those things that our brains tend to do. But the good news is that so much of it is subconscious that, you know, you're gonna have very few people actively fighting to keep them. You know, most people would be horrified at the thought and be like, "Oh God, I don't, I don't do that, do I?" And it's like, well, you, you know, you probably do, but don't... I'm not blaming you. You know? And that can start a gentle conversation where nobody's being blamed. It's just, here's a thing that probably definitely happens, okay? Let's figure out how to do it. And one big part of that is, yeah, demystification. How do we get rid of that void of information and fill it with actual stuff so that the general person on the street knows if they see a kid having a meltdown with their parents, that maybe that kid is autistic. Maybe they're not having a tantrum. Maybe this isn't something to blame the parent for. Maybe this is a real moment of crisis for that poor parent and for the poor child even more so, and therefore, you know, compassion. Let's be compassionate rather than judgemental. Just as one of many examples of the kind of situation that can arise. We autistic people get judged so much for, for behaving the way we do and for doing the things we do, and, uh, knowledge will help with that a great deal, I think.

Leisa Reichelt 43:37

Indeed. But it feels as though this is yet another task that comes back to parents.

Pete Wharmby 43:41

That's the trouble, isn't it? We're the ones that are struggling and we end up being the ones that have to do all the legwork as well. And I guess that's why people like myself and many others, we try to write these books. I've gone so far as to say in the book that I want Different Minds to be an ally. I want it to be a book you can take with you into these meetings. I want it to be a book that builds your confidence up and makes you feel strong that actually, yes, these are things we need. I'm not making it up. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm not gonna be gaslighted into thinking that. I'm gonna stay true to this. These are things that my child needs and it says so right here in this book you know?

Leisa Reichelt 44:17

Yeah

Pete Wharmby 44:18

just feel that little bit of extra support from you know, my voice on a page, I guess. That would make me feel very happy if I knew that the book had had that impact even once. That would be enough It was written very much with that dual audience potentially in mind. You know, primarily for parents, but, you know, teachers, if you wanna read it, that would be really good.

Leisa Reichelt 44:40

Pete, if you could ask teachers to do one thing differently in schools today, what would you want them to do?

Pete Wharmby 44:50

I guess the thing that would have the biggest impact and is also sort of the easiest thing to communicate, would be just to say to them all, look, when it comes to an autistic kid and their parents, can you make your default response to believe them rather than anything else? Does that make sense?

Leisa Reichelt 45:09

Yeah

Pete Wharmby 45:10

too often there is doubt or dismissal or, you know, you hear people chatting in the staff room, you know, I don't think they're really autistic or this kind of thing. It's like, can we not? Like, can we just as a starting point, as a default mode, just believe it? Because very occasionally they might be making it up. But I mean, like, come on, that's not going to be the main thing. The thing is, we autistic people and our families are so exhausted by having to prove it all the time. I just want to be able to say to somebody, hey, you know what? It's too hot and too busy in here. Is it okay if I just go outside? And for them to just be like, oh, yeah, it's fine. Yeah, sure. No problem. Rather than, what? It's fine. What are you talking about? and you get that in schools. You know, you get kids who say, oh, this, this, this and this cause me problems. And there is a disbelief that you've then got to somehow get over. And it's so exhausting. So please just believe us. It is sometimes difficult to believe. The double empathy problem is why it's difficult to believe. It can be very hard for somebody who doesn't have ADHD, for example, to know just how forgetful we can be. You know, it can feel like we're making it up because it's so extreme, but we're not. It's just you can't imagine it because you're not ADHD. I'm sorry. I can't do anything about that. I just have to ask you, beg you to believe me. Just please believe us as a default stance. that would change everything.

Leisa Reichelt 46:35

Well, Pete, I think that's a really good place to wrap up our conversation. Thank you so much

Pete Wharmby 46:40

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 46:41

us today. Really appreciate it. Thanks for writing the book. We'll pop links to find out more about you and where to find the book in the episode notes as well

Pete Wharmby 46:50

Yeah. Thank you very much, and thanks for having me

Leisa Reichelt 46:52

Well, I hope you've enjoyed spending some time with Pete today, and I hope you've taken something helpful or inspiring from our chat. I have put links to Pete's resources, including his new book, in the episode notes. If you know someone who needs to listen to this episode, please take a moment and share it with them, and don't forget to leave us a rating or a review. It makes a huge difference in helping us get this podcast in front of others who haven't yet found our supportive community. If you have feedback, a guest suggestion, perhaps you'd like to share your own School Can't lived experience, we would love to hear from you. You can email us at schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. If you're a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, remember, you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state or Lifeline on 13 11 14. Please don't hesitate to reach out for extra help. Thank you for listening. We'll talk again soon. Take care.